Wear of CAP World War II Aviation Badge authorized

[lordmonar]

This is exactly the way I feel. And while I won't be wearing them, many others who did not earn them will.

But they did earn them.   They are CAP pilots and Observers.

[Storm Chaser]

Lordmonar,

I'll continue engaging in the discussion, but let's agree to keep our replies within context.

Storm,

I am well aware that we are not the Army Aux.    But Mitchell was asking for an example of the Army wearing them them.

You stated that the Army wearing certain unit awards "set the same type of precedence [sic] that CAP is using to allow currently qualified Observers and Pilots to wear historical badges..." That's why I replied that "we are not the Army Auxiliary, so what the Army does sets no precedent for CAP." Your assertion was incorrect; mine was a statement of fact.

The USAF does do what we are doing here.   Back in my AD days we had warrior Fridays (last Friday of the month) where airman could wear historical uniforms.

In all the years I've been in the Air Force I've never seen that. How long ago was it? Was it a unit or base thing? Was it allowed in an AFI or other official publication? If so, I stand corrected.

And finally......39-1 and the appropriate ICLs tell us what we can wear.......and they tell us we can wear these historical badges,

I don't disagree with you. I may not like it, but anyone in my AOR will be able to wear these badges, within the parameters of the ICL, if they so choose to.

so 36-2903 says is irrelevant, because we are the CAP not the USAF.     

Again, I agree that we're CAP, not the Air Force. But your assertion is not 100% correct. CAPM 39-1 does refer to AFI 36-2903 with regards to allowed military badges and awards, making it relevant to CAP, but not in the context of these historical CAP badges. The reason I brought this AFI (again, context is everything) is because you implied that CAP can approve uniform changes based on precedent, I wanted to illustrate the precedent set by the Air Force, not to imply we needed to follow this AFI.

This is exactly the way I feel. And while I won't be wearing them, many others who did not earn them will.

But they did earn them.   They are CAP pilots and Observers.

That's incorrect. They earned the CAP ratings and the current badges, not the badges worn in WWII. There is a difference.

[lordmonar]

Storm,

Back in the 80's in ATC (now know as AETC) it was policy to do warrior Fridays.

The practice was not allowed in 35-10 (yes I'm that old) but like many many many things in the USAF practices were not in the regs or AFIs.

My reference to 36-2903 being irrelevant was to counter your comment that only retirees could wear historical uniforms.

And finally.....CAP pilots are CAP pilots are CAP pilots (or observers).   The guys who wore the WWII wings did not have re-earn their wings when the switched in the 50's nor again when it changed again.  If the WWII guys did not have to qualifier to wear MY wings.....I don't have to earn their wings.

The is no difference.   Any more then if CAP said we will have to wear the Barry Boards for historical purposes......it is not like we have to earn them. 

[Garibaldi]

Storm,

Back in the 80's in ATC (now know as AETC) it was policy to do warrior Fridays.

The practice was not allowed in 35-10 (yes I'm that old) but like many many many things in the USAF practices were not in the regs or AFIs.

My reference to 36-2903 being irrelevant was to counter your comment that only retirees could wear historical uniforms.

And finally.....CAP pilots are CAP pilots are CAP pilots (or observers).   The guys who wore the WWII wings did not have re-earn their wings when the switched in the 50's nor again when it changed again.  If the WWII guys did not have to qualifier to wear MY wings.....I don't have to earn their wings.

The is no difference.   Any more then if CAP said we will have to wear the Barry Boards for historical purposes......it is not like we have to earn them. 

I'd view the Berry Boards as more of a punishment than anything of historical significance. I'll wear them again over my dead body.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Mitchell, you did not ask for badges but for putees. I gave you an example of a regular Army unit wearing an old uniform, the Continental Army uniform. Now are you changing the equation midstream by asking for a badge.

Tell me, do you know anyone in the unit I mentioned?

How do YOU know they are not authorized to wear, for instance, the Purple Heart if they did NOT earn it?

That is a medal instituted by George Washington. The Continental Army uniform may not be complete without one.

However since neither you nor me may know anyone there, it may be pointless to ask about any badges...

[kwe1009]

Storm,

Back in the 80's in ATC (now know as AETC) it was policy to do warrior Fridays.

The practice was not allowed in 35-10 (yes I'm that old) but like many many many things in the USAF practices were not in the regs or AFIs.

I remember that and actually thought it was pretty cool.  I don't recall anyone at the time really saying anything negative against it.  I know of quite a few NCOs who spent a lot of time trying to find these old uniforms (with the old rank too) so they could wear them. 

[Storm Chaser]

Storm,

Back in the 80's in ATC (now know as AETC) it was policy to do warrior Fridays.

The practice was not allowed in 35-10 (yes I'm that old) but like many many many things in the USAF practices were not in the regs or AFIs.

I remember that and actually thought it was pretty cool.  I don't recall anyone at the time really saying anything negative against it.  I know of quite a few NCOs who spent a lot of time trying to find these old uniforms (with the old rank too) so they could wear them.

I stand corrected.

[PHall]

Mitchell, you did not ask for badges but for putees. I gave you an example of a regular Army unit wearing an old uniform, the Continental Army uniform. Now are you changing the equation midstream by asking for a badge.

Tell me, do you know anyone in the unit I mentioned?

How do YOU know they are not authorized to wear, for instance, the Purple Heart if they did NOT earn it?

That is a medal instituted by George Washington. The Continental Army uniform may not be complete without one.

However since neither you nor me may know anyone there, it may be pointless to ask about any badges...

Don't even joke about the Purple Heart. Just don't.

[Flying Pig]

One of the CAPTalk members, leeyo32, was the commander of the Continental Color Guard. If you'd like I can let him know and he can chime in if you really want to know. I don't think he frequents here much.

[LSThiker]

Mitchell, you did not ask for badges but for putees. I gave you an example of a regular Army unit wearing an old uniform, the Continental Army uniform. Now are you changing the equation midstream by asking for a badge.

Tell me, do you know anyone in the unit I mentioned?

How do YOU know they are not authorized to wear, for instance, the Purple Heart if they did NOT earn it?

That is a medal instituted by George Washington. The Continental Army uniform may not be complete without one.

However since neither you nor me may know anyone there, it may be pointless to ask about any badges...

The Badge of Military Merit was only awarded to 3 people as far as historians can figure.  Although it was supposedly awarded to more, but any log of those cannot be found. 

The History of the Purple Heart is actually interesting in that it was awarded, forgotten until the 20th century, revived, revised criteria numerous times, made into a specific "wounded" warriors medal, and revised some more. 

http://www.thepurpleheart.com/history/

[LegacyAirman]

Storm,

Back in the 80's in ATC (now know as AETC) it was policy to do warrior Fridays.

The practice was not allowed in 35-10 (yes I'm that old) but like many many many things in the USAF practices were not in the regs or AFIs.

I remember that and actually thought it was pretty cool.  I don't recall anyone at the time really saying anything negative against it.  I know of quite a few NCOs who spent a lot of time trying to find these old uniforms (with the old rank too) so they could wear them.

During the celebration of the Air Force's 50th Anniversary, Keesler allowed vintage uniforms once a month for a year.

Also, interestingly, AFI 36-2903 authorizes oxidized finish "heritage" wings.

[Flying Pig]

Mitchell, you did not ask for badges but for putees. I gave you an example of a regular Army unit wearing an old uniform, the Continental Army uniform. Now are you changing the equation midstream by asking for a badge.

Tell me, do you know anyone in the unit I mentioned?

How do YOU know they are not authorized to wear, for instance, the Purple Heart if they did NOT earn it?

That is a medal instituted by George Washington. The Continental Army uniform may not be complete without one.

However since neither you nor me may know anyone there, it may be pointless to ask about any badges...

The Badge of Military Merit was only awarded to 3 people as far as historians can figure.  Although it was supposedly awarded to more, but any log of those cannot be found. 

The History of the Purple Heart is actually interesting in that it was awarded, forgotten until the 20th century, revived, revised criteria numerous times, made into a specific "wounded" warriors medal, and revised some more. 

http://www.thepurpleheart.com/history/

May 19, 1998
Effective this date, the Purple Heart is limited to American military personnel, and civilian awards are eliminated.

I wonder what prompted this change?  Ive never heard of a civilian being awarded the PH.  I read into it and think "Hmmm some civilian got a purple heart and it made some general mad."  But 1998.... there wasnt anything going on in 1998.

[THRAWN]

Mitchell, you did not ask for badges but for putees. I gave you an example of a regular Army unit wearing an old uniform, the Continental Army uniform. Now are you changing the equation midstream by asking for a badge.

Tell me, do you know anyone in the unit I mentioned?

How do YOU know they are not authorized to wear, for instance, the Purple Heart if they did NOT earn it?

That is a medal instituted by George Washington. The Continental Army uniform may not be complete without one.

However since neither you nor me may know anyone there, it may be pointless to ask about any badges...

The Badge of Military Merit was only awarded to 3 people as far as historians can figure.  Although it was supposedly awarded to more, but any log of those cannot be found. 

The History of the Purple Heart is actually interesting in that it was awarded, forgotten until the 20th century, revived, revised criteria numerous times, made into a specific "wounded" warriors medal, and revised some more. 

http://www.thepurpleheart.com/history/

May 19, 1998
Effective this date, the Purple Heart is limited to American military personnel, and civilian awards are eliminated.

I wonder what prompted this change?  Ive never heard of a civilian being awarded the PH.  I read into it and think "Hmmm some civilian got a purple heart and it made some general mad."  But 1998.... there wasnt anything going on in 1998.

If you call a series of terrorist attacks before and after "nothing"...interesting timing though. Just a few months before the Embassy Bombings that introduced the general public to bin Laden's merry band of murderers...

[Flying Pig]

Right, that Im aware of.  Im just curious what specific incident made someone decide that was an issue that needed addressed. 

[lordmonar]

Right, that Im aware of.  Im just curious what specific incident made someone decide that was an issue that needed addressed.

This is from Wiki

From 1942 to 1997, civilians serving or closely affiliated with the armed forces—as government employees, Red Cross workers, war correspondents, and the like—were eligible to receive the Purple Heart. Among the earliest civilians to receive the award were nine firefighters of the Honolulu Fire Department killed or wounded while fighting fires at Hickam Field during the attack on Pearl Harbor.[9] About 100 men and women received the award, the most famous being newspaperman Ernie Pyle who was awarded a Purple Heart posthumously by the Army after being killed by Japanese machine gun fire in the Pacific Theater, near the end of World War II. Before his death, Pyle had seen and experienced combat in the European Theater, while accompanying and writing about infantrymen for the folks back home.[10]

The most recent Purple Hearts presented to civilians occurred after the terrorist attacks at Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia, in 1996—for their injuries, about 40 U.S. civil service employees received the award.

However, in 1997, at the urging of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, Congress passed legislation prohibiting future awards of the Purple Heart to civilians. Today, the Purple Heart is reserved for men and women in uniform. Civilian employees of the U.S. Department of Defense who are killed or wounded as a result of hostile action may receive the new Defense of Freedom Medal. This award was created shortly after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

[THRAWN]

Right, that Im aware of.  Im just curious what specific incident made someone decide that was an issue that needed addressed.

Lobbying by the MOPH. When the 1998 Defense authorization was on the table, they lobbied to introduce language into the bill that would award the medal only to military personnel. That's why, in 2001, the DoD introduced the Defense of Freedom Medal to recognize DoD civilians wounded or killed.

[Flying Pig]

OK great thanks for the info.  I had no idea the PH had ever been awarded to civilians and didnt know about the Defense of Freedom Medal.  Thats why I was wondering why it was an issue. 

It would be a fun time to be a civilian awarded the Purple Heart... join CAP, wear it as your ONLY military decoration and then when people ask you say "Yes its a Purple Heart, no I was never in the military."  :clap:  Did those civilian Purple Hearts revert to the DoF Medal?  Or do those people keep their Purple Hearts? 

[LSThiker]

It would be a fun time to be a civilian awarded the Purple Heart... 

Minus that part of having to earn it 

[Chappie]

Was looking for and going to wear the WWII era Chaplains cross...but "doh".   The CAP Chaplain Service/Corps wasn't established until 1950...so I will be wearing the 65th anniversary commemorative Chaplains cross -- which is the same that was worn in 1950.   Looks like I get to save some money

[kwe1009]

May 19, 1998
Effective this date, the Purple Heart is limited to American military personnel, and civilian awards are eliminated.

I wonder what prompted this change?  Ive never heard of a civilian being awarded the PH.  I read into it and think "Hmmm some civilian got a purple heart and it made some general mad."  But 1998.... there wasnt anything going on in 1998.

That was just a couple of years after I was nearly killed in a terrorist attack and earned the PH along with many others including 19 fellow Airmen who didn't live to tell the story.  Don't forget about the embassy attacks in 1998 either.  Terrorism against the US has been going on for a long time but not all attacks get much air time because they are not "sexy" enough.