Recreating an old file?

[Capt Thompson]

Good to know, maybe another email is in order. Either way I will make it back next year to earn it again, so I'm not nearly as concerned as Eclipse seems to be lol

[Private Investigator]

Heh...ranger tabs.

+1 

[JeffDG]

Only R-1 (or above) actually required attendance at the summer school. R-3 and R-2 can be signed off by a qualified Ranger outside of the school.

The qual may be signed off somewhere else, but the tab may only be awarded at the Mountain per CAPM 39-1

5.1.1.3.7. CAP Ranger Tab. One CAP Ranger tab earned at the Hawk Mountain
activity may be sewn centered immediately above and touching the "Civil Air Patrol" tape on the BDU
uniform. Aviation or Occupational badges worn above this will be placed so that the insignia is ½ inch
above the Ranger Tape, rather than measuring from the "Civil Air Patrol" tape

[Eclipse]

The qual may be signed off somewhere else, but the tab may only be awarded at the Mountain per CAPM 39-1

5.1.1.3.7. CAP Ranger Tab. One CAP Ranger tab earned at the Hawk Mountain
activity may be sewn centered immediately above and touching the "Civil Air Patrol" tape on the BDU
uniform. Aviation or Occupational badges worn above this will be placed so that the insignia is ½ inch
above the Ranger Tape, rather than measuring from the "Civil Air Patrol" tape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXdyD2Yzls

[Capt Thompson]

The qual may be signed off somewhere else, but the tab may only be awarded at the Mountain per CAPM 39-1

5.1.1.3.7. CAP Ranger Tab. One CAP Ranger tab earned at the Hawk Mountain
activity may be sewn centered immediately above and touching the “Civil Air Patrol” tape on the BDU
uniform. Aviation or Occupational badges worn above this will be placed so that the insignia is ½ inch
above the Ranger Tape, rather than measuring from the “Civil Air Patrol” tape

So if it's awarded by PAWG, but not at the HMRS activity, it's not valid? Remember, PAWG has Ranger activities all year long, as evidenced by their website. Ranger quals are awarded throughout the year, not just at the one activity. R-3 and R-2 didn't even require the school WIWAC, and I don't think they do today either. See the quote from GroundHawg below.

I'll have to check my 90's era 39-1 (when I earned it) to see what the reference is in there, if there is any.

Again, this is a month old post that had nothing to do with a Ranger Tab. Why is a patch that I was awarded 20 years ago so interesting to everyone?

When I sign people off for their grades, I have to email/fax/mail a copy of the record to HMRS for them to award the new grade and then send it back to me to present to the member.

[Eclipse]

PAWG≠HMRS.

Why is a patch that I was awarded 20 years ago so interesting to everyone?

Actually, you're the one who brought it up. In the context of not caring about caring you can't wear it.

As with many of these things, when you ask the second question, eyebrows are raised.

[Capt Thompson]

Were you not hugged enough as a child? Do you need to pick everything apart, and turn a short post into a long argument? Can't we all just get along?

[Eclipse]

You're new here, but not new to CAP, and considering your history, are likely to be at least peripherally
aware of the fact that HMRS and the idea of CAP "Rangers" is a divisive issue within the organization,
and generally elicits a reaction when discussed.

In two different threads regarding records you indicated that that you didn't care about the decs and tab you "lost",
yet of course you cared enough to bring it up.

Then, when a number of responders offer legitimate suggestions as to how you can go about recovering these
decorations, you indicate a "non-standard route" to attaining them initially, and one which does not align with
the reality of how HMRS tracks these awards, which, based on experience, I and others can assure you HMRS
people are quite "excited" about.  Stuff happens, but considering the issue, it is highly unlikely that a properly
awarded Ranger Tab(s) is not recorded somewhere at HMRS, especially considering that your attendance is on file.

Further to that, considering that HMRS Rangers know their Ranger number in the same way that Seals know their
BUD/S class, you'd have a number and could be looked up quickly, as their records go back to double digits.

For better or worse, the toothpaste doesn't go back in the tube, and when you start indicating things that don't
add up, people are going to raise eyebrows.

You are, of course, at any time free to not respond, which (sometimes) ends the conversation.

Do you need to pick everything apart

No, only things that don't make sense.  There are a lot of members who lurk on this forum and use info
garnered here without participating.  When things don't sound right, we ask.

[Capt Thompson]

In two different threads regarding records you indicated that that you didn't care about the decs and tab you "lost",
yet of course you cared enough to bring it up.

The other thread you are referencing is here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19756.0

My exact quote in this thread: "Starfleet seems to have gone through the same thing I went through......returning member with a long period between service. More than 5 years (3 years?) = records being destroyed = no record left of any accomplishments = start over from scratch. It sucks, but that's how it is."

I never mentioned decs or a Ranger Tab in that thread, nor did I mention them in the current one until you asked what I lost that was important, to which I responded "Awards and badges mainly." Later in the post, I mentioned not wanting to cut the Ranger Tab off of my old BDU's. That was a statement in passing, not an invitation for a debate.

Coming back from such a long absence, you do very much feel like you are starting from scratch, but that's to be expected. My 1st Lt bars were removed from my BDU's and I went back without grade. My GTM badge and R-2 were removed as well, as there was no record in Eservices. Eservices did show my Earhart and Encampment, but I honestly didn't expect to even see those, and was glad when they were there.

I've already made a goal to get my GTM back this year, and head back to Hawk next, so no I wasn't that upset about either as I will have them back soon enough. Like GroundHawg said, even if I can prove that I can wear the R-2, I will still have to start the program from scratch and earn R-3 and R-2 again before I advance to R-1. A while back, before coming back to CAP, I had sent an email to PAWG asking if they had record of my attendance and R-2. A while later I received a reply with the dates of the schools I attended. The email didn't mention the R-2, and based on the wording of my email, I took it's absence in the reply to mean they didn't have the record. Maybe the respondent just forgot to put it in? Maybe another email would be in order? Either way, I'll be back there next summer, or possibly attend the Winter School again before then, so it won't be long before I can sew another one on. 

You are, of course, at any time free to not respond, which (sometimes) ends the conversation.

Funny, I thought the conversation was over almost a month ago. I asked a simple question about who at NHQ I could submit items to, to have them added to Eservices. LSThiker and JC004 answered my question very quickly, and the conversation ended. Then a month later, Starfleet puts up the "Why didn't they call me before burning my file" thread, and I responded with the above quote. When he reopened this thread, I responded similarly. The response wasn't a complaint about anything lost....just a response because I got an email from Captalk that I received a reply on a thread that I started.

I send another email to PAWG (because although PAWG isn't HMRS, the HMRS contacts are at PAWG HQ). If they can send me a record of the award, I'll sew it on my bdu's. If not, I'll earn it again next summer.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Or...don't. Get with the modern program and just...don't. Keep PAWG in PAWG.

[Eclipse]

As an Earhart cadet you qualify for 1st Lt automatically upon becoming a senior member, so there was no need to
remove those bars (this is separate from any conversation about restoring your previous grade).

GTMs were not tracked in eServices until about 5 years ago, so it would not be in there, however if any evidence
whatsoever existed, such as having BDUs from your cadet days or last tour as a senior members, a photo, or "somebody remembers",
your unit CC should accept that.

And then you've got your NCSA based on the HMRS attendance which you said was substantiated already.

To those scoring at home, this is the kind of thing that a Unit CC or Admin/PDO should help returning members substantiate,
they should not have to work so hard for things they already earned.

[Capt Thompson]

Or...don't. Get with the modern program and just...don't. Keep PAWG in PAWG.

I know there's a lot of disdain for the program, there always was. I can attest that the training was solid though, which was the whole point of attending. Unless something's dramatically changed between the 90's program and the modern program, I'm assuming the training is still top notch, so I'll make my way there again. True when I was 16, it was a little about the "prestige" of wearing the tab, but if the tabs suddenly couldn't be worn again, the training was well worth the trip.

edit....we're fairly close to PAWG as well, so this training is a lot closer than other ES related NCSA's.

As an Earhart cadet you qualify for 1st Lt automatically upon becoming a senior member, so there was no need to
remove those bars (this is separate from any conversation about restoring your previous grade).

GTMs were not tracked in eServices until about 5 years ago, so it would not be in there, however if any evidence
whatsoever existed, such as having BDUs from your cadet days or last tour as a senior members, a photo, or "somebody remembers",
your unit CC should accept that.

And then you've got your NCSA based on the HMRS attendance which you said was substantiated already.

To those scoring at home, this is the kind of thing that a Unit CC or Admin/PDO should help returning members substantiate,
they should not have to work so hard for things they already earned.

True, but it will still be a while until the previous grade is reinstated, so wearing a uniform with silver bars when I'm technically a SWOG would be wrong. Along with myself, we have a former Major with a longer period of absence than mine. A couple weeks ago the CC asked us when NHQ would give us our previous grade back. He's a relatively new CC and hasn't had this situation before, so he didn't know he had to initiate the request. My Level I is complete and approved, and the other member is just waiting on approval, so I assume that will be taken care of soon.

To me, the GTM badge represents a qualification that I no longer hold. I know, once you earn it you wear it forever, but it would seem wrong showing up to a mission as a GTM3 Trainee, wearing a GTM badge. Luckily, my Squadron is very active in ES, and started GTM3 training in house 2 weeks ago. MIWG has 2 SAREX's planned between now and April, so by the time the snow melts I can have the badge, and the qualification back. In July I'll go to MIWG Sar Academy and work on higher quals. It doesn't seem worth it to me to fight to get a badge back on my uniform that I'm 25% of the way towards earning back anyway.

To the last point, they haven't exactly been unhelpful, but a little preoccupied with the SUI so I've tried to do the legwork on my own. I'm sure there are units out there though that make it tough, which shouldn't be. Another reason to attend meetings at several units and have these conversations with the PDO and CC before making a determination on which unit to choose. Also another reason to not have a 13+ year gap, but it's a bit too late for that now!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Don't know about distances, but NESA seems about the same if not closer on a map between Monroe County - NESA or HMRS.

[Capt Thompson]

Actually NESA is a little closer. WIWAC no one ever told me about NESA, but the wing sent a van of cadets to PA every year for HMRS and the winter school. Not sure if they still do or not.

Capt. have you attended both Hawk and NESA (or has anyone else here been to both). Looking at just the training side, is one better than the other? Has this already been hashed out in another thread, or would it be a good idea to start one since the discussion doesn't belong in Membership?

[Fubar]

Capt. have you attended both Hawk and NESA (or has anyone else here been to both). Looking at just the training side, is one better than the other? Has this already been hashed out in another thread, or would it be a good idea to start one since the discussion doesn't belong in Membership?

This is Captalk, everything has been hashed out in numerous other threads.

[Capt Thompson]

Capt. have you attended both Hawk and NESA (or has anyone else here been to both). Looking at just the training side, is one better than the other? Has this already been hashed out in another thread, or would it be a good idea to start one since the discussion doesn't belong in Membership?

This is Captalk, everything has been hashed out in numerous other threads.

True lol, I mean is there one you can reference......I couldn't find anything specific in search.

[Capt Thompson]

I couldn't find a thread to answer my question, so I posted a new one in ES here:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19762.msg364556#new

If anyone has first hand knowledge on the topic please reply there.

If anyone knows of a decent thread that has already compared the two, without bashing one or the other, please reference it there for me.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You'll get a bit of bashing no matter what.

YMMV, but NESA has a rep for "quality", while HMRS is an " adventure" NCSA for cadets. Want to get quals for ES? Go to NESA. But again, you'll find others defend the "extras" of HMRS, even if they don't get used in CAP.