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pierson777
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« on: December 04, 2014, 08:04:02 PM »

I wish there was a "Former Member Report" that I could view for my unit.  The report could show the former member's identifying information, their last date of membership in the unit, and their status such as: expired membership, transferred, retired, terminated, deceased, and their current unit (if any).  It would be most useful if such report could be defined by date parameters.  That way the user could identify who left the unit during a specific calendar year.

One of the Subordinate Unit Inspection (SUI) questions for Personnel asks, "are inactive personnel records maintained for 5 years..."  I've been through three SUIs, and each time this question comes up, I show the inspector my drawer full of inactive records and they're satisfied.  However, there is really no way of identifying which individual records we should have.  If we could obtain a "Former Member Report', then this could be easily determined.

I recently spoke to a friend, because I was about to shred his personnel record (nearly 30 year's worth).  I thought he was no longer in CAP, so I was surprised to discover that he is still a member assigned to XX-000 (identification of wing withheld).  I had no idea my wing even had a 000 unit.  I wonder who maintains those records, or if they ever attempted to obtain their members' records when the members transferred to XX-000.  Those members didn't choose to be transferred to XX-000, so obviously they did not take the responsibility to transfer their records themselves.

What are your thoughts?  Would this be useful?  Does anyone have any advice how to go about recommending this to higher headquarters.  I've never had much luck gaining the audience of higher headquarters because they seem to be burdened with too many other issues. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 08:20:31 PM »

Wing is supposed to maintain the records of members in their 000 unit, though some
wing staffers don't want to be bothered.

At a minimum a "shred" report would be nice.
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Alaric
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 09:06:30 PM »

Wing is supposed to maintain the records of members in their 000 unit, though some
wing staffers don't want to be bothered.

At a minimum a "shred" report would be nice.


To quote you "Cite please" the requirement is the member is responsible for the transfer of records.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 09:28:25 PM »

Wing is supposed to maintain the records of members in their 000 unit, though some
wing staffers don't want to be bothered.

At a minimum a "shred" report would be nice.


To quote you "Cite please" the requirement is the member is responsible for the transfer of records.

No argument, but they still need to ultimately be stored at wing, which is the host for 000.

If the former CC is reasonably sure that a member going into 000 can be trusted to transfer the records
properly, then fine, give them to him, otherwise, they need to be transferred by some other means to wing,
since it's not generally reasonable to expect someone in 000 to care.

Either way, they aren't the former CC's responsibility for retention.
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pierson777
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 11:58:58 PM »

It is the responsibility of the former unit to keep a copy of the member's personnel record for 5 years.

Quote
CAPR 39-2 1-8. Inactive Records. Members who transfer, resign, retire or fail to renew may request their membership records from the   unit. The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file. Members whose membership is not renewed or terminated may request a copy of their membership records from the unit; however, the unit will retain the official records. Records not requested by former members will be removed from the unit's active file and arranged alphabetically in an inactive file. The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Personnel and Member Actions (NHQ/DP). If not requested after
the 5th year, records will be destroyed.

This regulation says "should" and "will" regarding the same subject.  I suppose it could be interpreted as the recommended method but not mandatory.  However, this is an SUI question for personnel, so it seems that the "will" wins out.

You're not supposed to just give the member their personnel record to take to their new unit.  You keep it for your unit's records and you can give them a copy to take to their new unit.  If a member transfers, then they are considered and inactive member (aka former member) of your unit.  Therefore you required to keep a copy of their personnel record for five years.

Also, my point earlier is that members  that were transferred to XX-000 were transferred because they were not active with CAP any more, but they were still on the roster.  They could have just had their membership status changed to patron member and stayed in their old unit, but instead they were transferred to XX-000.  I  doubt that an inactive member to going take the responsibility to transfer their own record to XX-000.

I guess my dilemma was caused by former commanders that transferred members to XX-000, but did not consider what would happen to the members' records.  I've also had three former commanders that just reached into the file cabinet and gave a member their personnel record when they transferred to another wing without making a copy for our unit to keep.  This happened when I wasn't at a meeting and the commanders didn't know about the retention requirements.
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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 12:25:34 AM »

Why would you need to keep a copy of their records if they're not in your unit anymore? ???
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 12:25:45 AM »

It is the responsibility of the former unit to keep a copy of the member's personnel record for 5 years.

No. it is not, at least not in regards to transfers.

Quote
CAPR 39-2 1-8. Inactive Records. Members who transfer, resign, retire or fail to renew may request their membership records from the   unit. The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file. Members whose membership is not renewed or terminated may request a copy of their membership records from the unit; however, the unit will retain the official records. Records not requested by former members will be removed from the unit's active file and arranged alphabetically in an inactive file. The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Personnel and Member Actions (NHQ/DP). If not requested after
the 5th year, records will be destroyed.

This regulation says "should" and "will" regarding the same subject.  I suppose it could be interpreted as the recommended method but not mandatory.  However, this is an SUI question for personnel, so it seems that the "will" wins out.

No, it does not.  "Should" applies to transfers, "will" applies to non-renewals and terminations (i.e. "former members")

You're not supposed to just give the member their personnel record to take to their new unit. 
Yes, you are, per regulations.

If a member transfers, then they are considered and inactive member (aka former member) of your unit.
No, they are not - they are active members in another unit.

Therefore you required to keep a copy of their personnel record for five years.
No, you are not.

Also, my point earlier is that members  that were transferred to XX-000 were transferred because they were not active with CAP any more, but they were still on the roster.  They could have just had their membership status changed to patron member and stayed in their old unit, but instead they were transferred to XX-000.
Members in 000 are >not< automatically inactive.  For example, when a charter is dissolved, all members are transferred to 000
until a new charter is selected.  There is no specific, regulatory requirement that members in 000 be placed in patron status, and some wings don't do this.

I  doubt that an inactive member to going take the responsibility to transfer their own record to XX-000.
I agree, but as Alaric pointed out, that's not what the regs say.  So whether you hand them to the member,
or mail them to wing, they aren't the unit's problem any more.

I guess my dilemma was caused by former commanders that transferred members to XX-000, but did not consider what would happen to the members' records.
The problem here is not with the unit CC, but with the wing staffer (probably Personnel, but maybe admin), who accepted the transfer, but didn't bother to
follow up on the records.

I've also had three former commanders that just reached into the file cabinet and gave a member their personnel record when they transferred to another wing without making a copy for our unit to keep.  This happened when I wasn't at a meeting and the commanders didn't know about the retention requirements.
This was 100% in compliance with the applicable regulations.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:29:54 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


JC004
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2014, 12:57:19 AM »

I'd like to see such a report.  I always generated my own.  I started doing that when I first started doing Personnel - right after cadethood.  Used to also track active/inactive, who to call about if they planned to be active (or had a problem we could resolve), or if we had to collect equipment/supplies from them (like cadet uniforms).
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pierson777
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2014, 02:25:06 AM »

Eclipse, as I tried to explain before, I think the regulation is worded poorly which causes confusion and disagreements.  You obviously have chosen to interpret it one way, and I agree that it can be interpreted it that way.  So you could be right.  But I think the intent of the regulation is other than you interpret it, because there is more text indicating that we should keep records for all former members of our unit for five years.  So there's a chance you're wrong.  Wouldn't you agree?

You say the "should" applies to transfers, but it applies to "former members". 
Quote
From 39-2, 1-8...The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file.
Unfortunately the regulation does not define "former members".  I believe that the intent of the regulation is that "former member" in this context means former member of the unit, rather than former member of CAP. 

I inquired with my wing DP, wing IG, and region DP and was told that we are suppose to keep the personnel records for former members of our unit for five years, and this applied to transfers, non-renewals, retired, deceased, terminated, etc.  The following is a CAP Knowledgebase Q&A. 

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1038/kw/inactive%20records
Quote
When an active CAP member is transferred to another unit does the former unit need to copy the record to keep in the unit's inactive file?

Yes. The losing unit should retain a copy of the transferring member's record and place it in the inactive file in accordance with Paragraph 1-8 of  CAPR 39-2 Civil Air Patrol Membership 27 December 2012 (Includes change 1, 4 September 2013 & change 2, 16 April 2014). When a member transfers to another unit, the transferring member will hand carry his or her records to the gaining unit in accordance with Paragraph 1-11. See below for additional administrative procedures required for transfers.

Hopefully this will become a moot point someday if all personnel items can be recorded in eServices, and we can stop keeping records at the unit...we can only hope.
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PHall
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 02:31:09 AM »

Pierson777, your view seems to be the minority view.
And a helpdesk answer is not exactly binding. It has no authority...
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 02:59:59 AM »

Pierson777, your view seems to be the minority view.
And a helpdesk answer is not exactly binding. It has no authority...

+1 And your wing staff is free to tell you whatever they want, however absent an approved supplement
it could not be a discrepancy item on an SUI.

As to "not defining former members" - members who transfer to another unit (i.e 000) and not, by any definition "former members"
they are active members under someone else's responsibility.

The don't become "former" until they drop off the national roster, at which point their files go into the inactive drawer.
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pierson777
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 03:17:23 AM »

Pierson777, your view seems to be the minority view.
And a helpdesk answer is not exactly binding. It has no authority...
Who is the ultimate authority on this issue?  I went pretty high to find an answer; wing, region, and National HQ.  I'm just repeating the answer that I got from them. 

By the way, if I could choose one way or the other, I would rather not keep the records for transferred members.  So, I'm not doing what I want.  I'm doing what I've been told by wing, region, and national.  I think that's binding and has authority.  When I'm told to do otherwise by appropriate higher headquarters, I will do so.

Twice I've seen CAP knowledgebase answers that I thought were incorrect, and I notified knowledgebase/Natl HQ.  Both were corrected.  I encourage anyone that disagrees with the aforementioned knowledgebase Q&A to do the same.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2014, 03:29:56 AM »

This is the reason we have issues - the regulation is clearly written and relives the unit of an unnecessary
burden, yet members choose to interpret it incorrectly and perpetuate more work for themselves.

It serves zero purpose to retain a copy of records of members who are still active and move to another charter.

It's one thing to run them through a scanner and keep the .pdf until you are sure the authoritative copy makes
it to the new unit, another thing entirely to maintain records (especially a hardcopy) as an inactive file subject to
the same retention policies.

NHQ didn't provide you with any more guidance then simply quoting the reg.
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PHall
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2014, 03:51:10 AM »

pierson777, think of all of the trees that have died to make your extra copy of an active member's records.

Think of the trees...
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pierson777
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2014, 06:02:00 AM »

pierson777, think of all of the trees that have died to make your extra copy of an active member's records.

Think of the trees...
I know.  I scan them and email them to the members that transfer.  I'm a huge a proponent of getting rid of all hardcopy documents except for certificates.  I keep a minimal amount of paperwork in the personnel file. If a senior member could join online and if we could do awards, ribbons, decorations, etc. online, then there would be no need to have personnel files.  It costs us too much money and our volunteer's time.  I think we lose members because we spend too much administering ourselves.  After all, how many of us joined CAP because we thought it would be fun to manage an office for free.

Talk about trees...last month a senior member in my unit tried to print four copies of the Cadet Great Start Book to give them to four prospective members that showed up to check out the program.  I guess he thought they were like a brochure.  Each one is 101 pages.  We managed to stop it after only one copy was printed.
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Private Investigator
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2014, 09:35:47 PM »

I recently spoke to a friend, because I was about to shred his personnel record (nearly 30 year's worth).  I thought he was no longer in CAP, so I was surprised to discover that he is still a member assigned to XX-000 (identification of wing withheld).  I had no idea my wing even had a 000 unit.  I wonder who maintains those records, or if they ever attempted to obtain their members' records when the members transferred to XX-000.  Those members didn't choose to be transferred to XX-000, so obviously they did not take the responsibility to transfer their records themselves.

What are your thoughts?  Would this be useful?  Does anyone have any advice how to go about recommending this to higher headquarters.  I've never had much luck gaining the audience of higher headquarters because they seem to be burdened with too many other issues.

As a Unit DP I touched base with Group/DP and Wing/DP on everything. Next I was Group/DP and later Wing/DP.

All DPs should know about XX-000 and XX-001 and what to do with Personnel Files. The member for one reason or another may not know that he got put in XX-000. i.e. 50 year member has a stroke and is in rehab and the new hotshot Squadron Commander comes on and wants 100% safety compliant monthly and transfer that member to XX-000.

Every Wing is different but if you get no response I would email the Wing/DP and copy the Wing/CV and/or Wing/CS. The Wing/DP will take the job seriously or you may take his place. Interesting things do happen.  8)
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JC004
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 11:31:16 AM »

pierson777, think of all of the trees that have died to make your extra copy of an active member's records.

Think of the trees...
I know.  I scan them and email them to the members that transfer.  I'm a huge a proponent of getting rid of all hardcopy documents except for certificates.  I keep a minimal amount of paperwork in the personnel file. If a senior member could join online and if we could do awards, ribbons, decorations, etc. online, then there would be no need to have personnel files.  It costs us too much money and our volunteer's time.  I think we lose members because we spend too much administering ourselves.  After all, how many of us joined CAP because we thought it would be fun to manage an office for free.

Talk about trees...last month a senior member in my unit tried to print four copies of the Cadet Great Start Book to give them to four prospective members that showed up to check out the program.  I guess he thought they were like a brochure.  Each one is 101 pages.  We managed to stop it after only one copy was printed.

Do you know of this free software for cleaning up scanned documents?  I posted this earlier:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19539.0
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