New ribbon ideas?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

These ideas have merit.  I hope none of my replies (in blue) are taken as flames.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

I would delete the ESA, MSA and Achievement.  I would also seek to add the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific award.

Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

A good idea but possibly confusing since one of the ribbons is already extant.  I would use a new-design ribbon with Membership - plain, Leadership - bronze star, Loening - silver star, Garber - silver propeller, Wilson - golden propeller.

Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Good.

Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

Good, but modify.  Leave the "Find" ribbon for ground teams and implement the Civilian Air Medal for aircrew.

Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet ribbon.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

All good.

Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

Good, but prefer the option of making Cadet and Senior recruiting ribbons the same.

I know someone's ox will be gored, but I would appreciate your comments.

These are in the main all good suggestions as I see it.  Nobody's ox would be gored that isn't in it just for the blingage, as I see it.  Again I strongly support the idea of asking the Air Force to include us in eligibility for AF Civilian Awards when on AFAM's.

[ColonelJack]

I can certainly see the impetus to reduce the number of ribbons senior members can wear.  (I will say, however, that I am not really sure why we would want to do this.)  That being said, many of the suggestions have more than a little merit.

However, there's one thing I'd like to add to the discussion ... Leave the Wilson Award alone.

It is the hardest training award to earn, and somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of all senior members will earn it.  Something that hard to get should be recognized all on its own.

And so what if the member sometimes screws up and puts it on upside down?  That can be fixed with a quick off-over-on on your rack.  No need to remove the decoration simply because some people don't know how to wear it right.

And I concur with CyBorg on the AF Civilian Air Medal.  What, exactly, is their reason for not allowing us to earn it, considering we used to be able to earn the real Air Medal?

Jack

[PHall]

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

[LTCinSWR]

These ideas have merit.  I hope none of my replies (in blue) are taken as flames.

Replies in Green - (no flames - g)

I would delete the ESA, MSA and Achievement.  I would also seek to add the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific award.

Intermediate headquarters should have the ability to reward meritorious or exceptional service at their level without attempting to inundate the National level Awards Committee.


(Senior Training Ribbon) A good idea but possibly confusing since one of the ribbons is already extant.  I would use a new-design ribbon with Membership - plain, Leadership - bronze star, Loening - silver star, Garber - silver propeller, Wilson - golden propeller.


Now the cost gets driven up by non-standard devices (silver and gold prop). That is why I suggested numerals -  2 - Davis, 3 - Loening, etc...

Find Ribbon

Good, but modify.  Leave the "Find" ribbon for ground teams and implement the Civilian Air Medal for aircrew.

There was no intent that ground teams be left out; the criteria would be the same as currently used.

I am not understanding the fascination with DAF Civilian awards being presented to CAP. Why mix things? DAF civilian employees are apples to CAP member Oranges. Also, AF Civilian awards generally have to be at Numbered AF or MAJCOM level; so, that adds (at least) two layers of Award Boards and Commanders' approvals. Right now, the Air Force is being tasked with doing more with less and I suspect they will balk at adding a bunch of reward requests in the limited time the Boards will have to review and recommend/reject. We should reward our own and not force that on the Air Force.

Recruiting Ribbon

Good, but prefer the option of making Cadet and Senior recruiting ribbons the same.

That was my intent, but I didn't express it in my original post. You are the second person to catch me on that; thank you.

These are in the main all good suggestions as I see it.  Nobody's ox would be gored that isn't in it just for the blingage, as I see it.  Again I strongly support the idea of asking the Air Force to include us in eligibility for AF Civilian Awards when on AFAM's.

I reiterate my question from above vis a -vis DAF employees and CAP members. Thank you for the positive, reinforcing suggestions!

[LTCinSWR]

I can certainly see the impetus to reduce the number of ribbons senior members can wear.  (I will say, however, that I am not really sure why we would want to do this.)  That being said, many of the suggestions have more than a little merit.

I think my biggest reason for reducing ribbons is the public perception if they see a member in uniform who is fully kitted out with 25-28 ribbons - are they thinking " is that a (name your favorite third or fourth world) general?' In reality, we have three missions; I guess I am a minimalist at heart, but I also know the value of rewarding volunteers. Quality over quantity.

However, there's one thing I'd like to add to the discussion ... Leave the Wilson Award alone.

It is the hardest training award to earn, and somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of all senior members will earn it.  Something that hard to get should be recognized all on its own.

I'm not suggesting doing away with the award, just how it is represented on the uniform. Once again, my bias toward minimalism is out. YMMV

And so what if the member sometimes screws up and puts it on upside down?  That can be fixed with a quick off-over-on on your rack.  No need to remove the decoration simply because some people don't know how to wear it right.

Again, minimalism and risk reduction. I would hope by the time someone has their Wilson, that wouldn't be a problem, but why create potential embarrassment?

And I concur with CyBorg on the AF Civilian Air Medal.  What, exactly, is their reason for not allowing us to earn it, considering we used to be able to earn the real Air Medal?

The civilian AF awards require Numbered AF or MAJCOM (in some cases SecAF) approval. Do you think the Air Force wants to add that burden, especially with the reduction in forces and budgets we are seeing?

[jeders]

My responses in blue

This could really be called a consolidation suggestion for senior awards. IMHO the number of ribbons we have are excessive. Some are redundant, when you consider some of the metallic badges. So, here are my suggestions, in descending order.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

No complaints here.

Agreed


Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Agreed with keeping Wilson as is and combining the rest. Personally though, I would design an entirely new Senior Member Professional Development ribbon instead of using one of the existing ones.


Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Kill the Crossfield – it’s a triple dip (Master AE gets Crossfield, Master badge, AND silver star on Leadership). No other track has a special ribbon for Master level. I'd add a star for seniors completing all the requirements for the cadet model rocketry badge.

Drop the Crossfield, you already have the badge, and keep the Yeager as is.


Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

No complaints

Agreed


Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

I could live with it.

I don't hate the idea. Again, I'd rather see a new Ops ribbon designed than to use an existing one. Though I'd keep the tri-prop from the SAR ribbon to denote Air vs Ground.


Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet achievement/milestone ribbon.

No complaints


Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Need to think about this one.

Most of these are sufficiently different that I don't think combining them all would be a good idea. Community Service really has nothing to do with with Cadet Programs, it can be earned by Senior Members who never even see a cadet, let alone support CP. Eliminate IACE and NCC/NCGC and award the NCSA ribbon for those; everything else, leave as is.


Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Agreed.

Agreed, especially now that graduated commanders are required to wear the command badge on the Air Force style uniforms.


Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Agreed

I'd just drop the 'Red', but to each their own.


Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

OK, but move it up above the training ribbons.

I actually really like this idea, especially for former military who wear the whites and are not allowed to wear military decs. In addition you might want to add a silver star for members who served during a time of conflict (i.e. when the NDSM is awarded)


Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

Disagree. Consolidate Cadet Recruiting and Senior Recruiting ribbons. Change criteria to 2 for first award, 3 more for second, and 5 for each afterward.

Agreed with arajca's lower qualifying numbers. It's hard enough to recruit people sometimes and you want this to be something that people actually think they can get.

usafcap, I was going to respond to each of yours individually, but I won't. The plain fact is that none of them, with one exception, make any real sense for CAP. Based on your previous responses, the whole point of using these ribbons is to emulate the air force more, that's fine; but none of these ribbons reflect what CAP does. We don't use guns regularly, we don't land planes on a wing and a prayer, we don't hunt down terrorists or directly serve in the defense of our nation, and with the possible exception of a few members in Alaska, we don't do Arctic service.

The one exception in your list is the Member of the Year Award. Of course we already have plenty of 'Of the Year' awards, but creating a ribbon to recognize those awards would be a lot easier than trying to pin a plaque to your chest. Of course if you wore that plaque on a big chain around your neck and you too could be a major rap star. 

[James Shaw]

The one exception in your list is the Member of the Year Award. Of course we already have plenty of 'Of the Year' awards, but creating a ribbon to recognize those awards would be a lot easier than trying to pin a plaque to your chest. Of course if you wore that plaque on a big chain around your neck and you too could be a major rap star. 

There was a Member of the Year Award approved several years ago. It was designated the National Honors Award to award to those that earned things like National PAO of the Year. Ribbon approved, produced, waiting on approval for distribution.

Before a giant discussion begins this thing was already hashed out and bombarded on CAPTalk some time ago.

[TheTravelingAirman]

Thank you I view AFI 36-1004 as soon as I can.

Marksmanship "BME Ribbon": Its purpose would be to "do away" with the NRA dangley medal deal, that cadets wear on their blues. But possibly open the doors to allow Senior's to partake in BME.

Mission Readiness: In this day and age we should always be ready Auxiliary or not. And plus this applies to all missions.

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

GWOT and NDSM: These were ideas that have been submitted to me. BUT are still being "FLUSHED OUT".  Meaning that if I can't come to a good enough reason for us to have it, than I'm most likely not going to submit it for consideration. (Hence why they fall under the "Ideas that have been entered. BUT are still being "flush out" category  )

Are there any other ribbons that I have post that require justification?


My apologies if my answers sound mean. I'm not trying to be.

No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming. Unless the AF adopts CAP as the Coasties do their Auxiliary, I see no reason for some of these.

Purple heart? The Border Patrol has the Purple Cross; same idea, different award. But both them and us DoD guys have a reasonable expectation to come under fire.

36-1004 does have an award for that circumstance, but I feel it unnecessary to play military when we have a very important civilian mission we need to focus on first. We focus on that, get squared away in a way that the AF can look at and respect.

[JC004]

I don't understand what a Mission Readiness, or what one would do to get one.  I don't understand Arctic Service either.

The overseas/combat-related ribbons, as well as NDSM, are totally not appropriate for CAP, so that's all I have on that.

Good Conduct is pointless for CAP.  Very, very few CAP members are enlisted grades.  Also, we do not use the UCMJ, so the disciplinary stuff isn't there.  You might get a termination, rarely a suspension or demotion, but that's about all that's even specifically outlined.  Other corrective/disciplinary stuff doesn't really exist.  It doesn't serve a purpose, really.

[LTCinSWR]

No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming.

A little ancient history (I don't mind dating myself) - That is why I have wondered why we have worn BATTLE Dress Uniforms. Granted, when the Air Force replaced the old fatigues with the Woodland Pattern, that was because of supply issues; guess the same will eventually happen with the ACU ('C', as in 'Combat'). Sort of struck me as strange.  I'm perfectly content with 'blue' field uniform.

[LTCinSWR]

My responses in blue
Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

No complaints here.

Agreed

I have been thinking about this and have wondered why the Lifesaving Award is lower in precedence than the Achievement Award. The Lifesaving Award is approved at the wing level (I remember when it was a Nationally approved award, in the early 80's) and is certainly more meritorious than the Achievement Award, especially if it is an individual save.


Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Agreed with keeping Wilson as is and combining the rest. Personally though, I would design an entirely new Senior Member Professional Development ribbon instead of using one of the existing ones.

Makes sense to me


Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

I actually really like this idea, especially for former military who wear the whites and are not allowed to wear military decs. In addition you might want to add a silver star for members who served during a time of conflict (i.e. when the NDSM is awarded)

The NDSM=silver star is a great idea

[JC004]

I feel like Lifesaving order should be changed.  You can get an Achievement award for a lot of basic things, and it doesn't seem to make sense that saving a life is below a successful rocketry weekend.

[TheTravelingAirman]

No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming.

A little ancient history (I don't mind dating myself) - That is why I have wondered why we have worn BATTLE Dress Uniforms. Granted, when the Air Force replaced the old fatigues with the Woodland Pattern, that was because of supply issues; guess the same will eventually happen with the ACU ('C', as in 'Combat'). Sort of struck me as strange.  I'm perfectly content with 'blue' field uniform.

I am kinda partial to the "pickle suit" as well. But yes, the blue field uniform looked good the first time I saw it. Still kinda want to flaunt my MX badge, but eh, I'll live. That's what the real uniform is for.

[kwe1009]

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

[PHall]

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

[lordmonar]

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

+1
No one saw a need for one in the USAF until they tried to take it away.....so yes there is a need for one.   They just needed to tighten up the definition of "good conduct".

[flyboy53]

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

+1
No one saw a need for one in the USAF until they tried to take it away.....so yes there is a need for one.   They just needed to tighten up the definition of "good conduct".

+2

Agreed. The medal is important to me.

Also, having known veterans of all services who earned only a Good Conduct Medal, it is very important to them because of what it represents.

Given the nature of this medal, however, I don't think there's a need for it in CAP. The daily standard required for it in the Air Force -- even the Reserve AFRMSM -- is not even close to what is required for CAP cadets or senior members. If that standard was applied in this organization, it would truly be interesting.

[MHC5096]

I saw more than a few people in my 22 year military career who weren't awarded the Good Conduct Medal when they should have been because of their behavior.

Also keep in mind that the Good Conduct Medals are among the oldest military awards issued by the United States. The Navy Good Conduct Medal (est. 1869) and Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal (est. 1896) are the 3rd and 4th oldest US military awards after the Purple Heart (est. 1782) and the Medal of Honor (est. 1861).

[DoubleSecret]

GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

[Storm Chaser]

GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

Is that how you got yours? I actually earned mine.