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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: 1949 Problems - CAP Uniforms, Grade and Saluting
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JeffDG
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 09:24:39 PM »

No past Wing or Region Commanders in the Wing?

The last two, one is on National Staff, one is the region CV, and with the current CC just about 3 1/2 years in (he's counting the days!) that takes us back over a decade.  I'm not counting any Patrons, only active Senior members.

We had one Col for quite some time who had never held any office that normally is a prerequisite for birds.  Being inducted to the Aviation Hall of Fame, having over 57,000 logged hours, and being a CFI into her 90s, with a 3-digit age, tends to make an honourary appointment to Colonel grade a possibility.  But she, unfortunately passed away.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2014, 12:02:15 AM »

Ignore, misread
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2014, 05:21:50 AM »

No past Wing or Region Commanders in the Wing?

Not unusual. They are still moving up. Eventually they come back to the Wing or a Squadron in the Wing. The Generals tend to be in "000" units.  8)
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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2014, 05:38:23 AM »

The fact that the organization tends to be top heavy with captains >might< also be interesting.

Are they pilots brought in a captains?  If so, why are we crying for pilots all the time?

Do members top out at captain because that's where the ROI ends, and there's no incentive for the average member to advance
(especially considering no job is closed because of lack of advancement).

Is the bureaucracy for advancement past captain so boggling that commanders delay and defer or members don't' want to bother?
Or related, the made-up, subjective bar is different for almost every member so things get denied when they should be approved?

The one about having too many captains and not enough pilots should be a discussion point.

Interesting point about Captains. Either prior military or watching too much T.V. Members like being Captains. Captain Courageous, Captain Blood, Captain Morgan, Captain Kirk, Captain Bligh, Captain Cook, Captain John Paul Jones, Captain Phillips, Captain Smith, Captain Ahab, Captain Hook, Captain Jack Sparrow, Cap'n Crunch, Captain America and CyBorg.

When our 4th grade teacher asked what we wanted to be when we grew up. The boys answered, "Captain" and the girls answered, "Nurse" or "Captain's wife" but that happens on a military base.   8)
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vento
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« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2014, 07:02:35 AM »

.....

When our 4th grade teacher asked what we wanted to be when we grew up. The boys answered, "Captain" and the girls answered, "Nurse" or "Captain's wife" but that happens on a military base.   8)

Must be a Navy base...
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2014, 04:03:35 AM »

.....

When our 4th grade teacher asked what we wanted to be when we grew up. The boys answered, "Captain" and the girls answered, "Nurse" or "Captain's wife" but that happens on a military base.   8)

Must be a Navy base...

Camp Pendleton, home of the 1st Marine Division. "The Old Breed". You will not believe who some of my classmate fathers were.  8)
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2014, 04:34:15 AM »

Is the bureaucracy for advancement past captain so boggling that commanders delay and defer or members don't' want to bother?
Or related, the made-up, subjective bar is different for almost every member so things get denied when they should be approved?

My thoughts exactly.

Whether or not one gets approved for Major is highly subjective.  I know I've brought my case up before, and hence won't go into detail about it, but Eclipse's sentence certainly made me think of that.
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BillB
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« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2014, 02:18:48 PM »

One re3ason that promotions e3nd at Captain is the member doesn't have a Bachelors Degree to take the Air Force courses required for promotion to Major.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2014, 06:28:51 PM »

One re3ason that promotions e3nd at Captain is the member doesn't have a Bachelors Degree to take the Air Force courses required for promotion to Major.

Take the CAP specific courses, and this is a nonissue.

Advancement beyond captain is political. You do (or should) have to to have some experience outside your unit, and interaction at the group level or higher.
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Strup
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2014, 07:27:36 PM »

Advancement beyond captain is political.

That statement should be etched on a bronze plaque and mounted at NHQ on a marble pillar.
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« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2014, 08:09:25 PM »

I've met and worked with many competent, knowledgable, experienced and professional Majs and Lt Cols, who were not political at all. They were just really good officers.

I've also met and worked with many Majs and Lt Cols who were not that good, yet got promoted not because they were political, but because they checked all the boxes.

We need to promote those CAP officers who've performed well at the current grade and have demonstrated potential for increased responsibility at the next grade. Unfortunately, not every CAP officer meets that criteria.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2014, 08:34:06 PM »

I've met and worked with many competent, knowledgable, experienced and professional Majs and Lt Cols, who were not political at all. They were just really good officers.

I've also met and worked with many Majs and Lt Cols who were not that good, yet got promoted not because they were political, but because they checked all the boxes.

We need to promote those CAP officers who've performed well at the current grade and have demonstrated potential for increased responsibility at the next grade. Unfortunately, not every CAP officer meets that criteria.

Agreed on all counts. However, look at the approving authority for grades past captain. That alone makes it political. I've seen plenty of great members who weren't promoted above captain because they wouldn't/didn't get their face and name known outside of their comfort zone. I've also known planty who did glad hand a bit and still weren't bumped.
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2014, 08:39:00 PM »

I've seen plenty of great members who weren't promoted above captain because they wouldn't/didn't get their face and name known outside of their comfort zone.

Then why would they be worthy of promotion?

Maj and above is supposed to include participation at a scope of Group or higher, thus the approval levels.

It's only "political" on the same level as "Life is political", meaning you have to please, or at least not displease, those with the pen.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2014, 08:51:38 PM »

I've seen plenty of great members who weren't promoted above captain because they wouldn't/didn't get their face and name known outside of their comfort zone.

Then why would they be worthy of promotion?

Maj and above is supposed to include participation at a scope of Group or higher, thus the approval levels.

It's only "political" on the same level as "Life is political", meaning you have to please, or at least not displease, those with the pen.

Exactly. Part of the game is getting all of the boxes checked. One of those boxes means that you have to poke your head out of your shell and interact with managment and leadership above your current level.
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Strup
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« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2014, 09:58:44 PM »

Sometimes it doesn't have to do with a "comfort zone," often it has to do with a personality type.

I don't know how familiar any of you are with the Myers-Briggs personality tests (which are themselves based on Jungian personality classifications), but those are usually a good indicator.

I tend to fall into the ISFJ category.

http://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality

My own personal opinion, which I will not be swayed from, is that CAP's criteria for promotion beyond company grade is too "cookie-cutter," failing to take into account that for some people, it is not a matter of "comfort zone"...it is a matter of how one is "hard-wired" at birth (I could get into A&P about glial cells, myelin sheaths, etc., during the formation of the human brain, but I won't), combined with life/behavioural experience.

At the same time, politics does play a part...if one has a commander who is insensitive to such things, instant brick wall.  If one has a commander willing to work with those who are not glad-handing "HEY HOWYA DOIN?!" extraverts, there are more possibilities.

Unfortunately, CAP seems to associate the latter with "leadership skills and capabilities," not remembering people like Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh "Stuffy" Dowding, who was largely responsible for winning the Battle of Britain...and then sidelined by the RAF because of his inability/unwillingness to "play politics."

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Hugh_Dowding,_1st_Baron_Dowding

I think the Navy is onto something with its Limited Duty Officer and Warrant Officer billets...but of course one will never convince CAP of that.

http://www.ocs.navy.mil/ldo.asp



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Eclipse
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« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2014, 10:09:17 PM »

Motivation, personality, comfort zones, & behavioral experience are essentially irrelevant, and frankly a lot of that
is what people trot out as excuses.

If you are unwilling or unable to participate at a scope larger then the squadron level, then promotion above Major is inappropriate.
There's nothing wrong with staying at the squadron, those contributions are important and necessary to CAPs
operations, and if the pyramid was treated properly in CAP (i.e. NHQ's job is to serve the member, because it's the
members who execute the missions, not vice versa), then this would be understood better.

There's no way around that, and it's consistent with similar scope in the military.  For some reason there is resentment
about people who do more and are recognized for it.  On a personal level, that's your private right, but when you've
got your CAP shirt on, you should be thankful there are people who have the circumstances that enable them to
run encampments, NCSAs, flight academies, etc., or put in full-time-type hours, because without them, CAP grinds to
a halt. (With that said, if you're putting in full-time hours at the squadron level, your unit is broken.)

The problem is that without tying promotions to assignments, they are treated as rewards for work done instead
of the mantle of responsibility.

At the same time, politics does play a part...if one has a commander who is insensitive to such things, instant brick wall.  If one has a commander willing to work with those who are not glad-handing "HEY HOWYA DOIN?!" extraverts, there are more possibilities.

If your unit of record is appropriate for the promotion expected, this is not an issue.

It's only when it isn't, and members expect a commander to advocate something they don't agree with that the hurt feelings
start.

Rare is the member who is assigned at the Group or wing level denied Major, or Wing or Region level denied Lt Col.
In cases where someone is assigned to a unit but serving ADY at a larger scope such as a Group/Wing/Region staff position,
significant contributor of a wing-level activity, or perhaps a major player in ES training, then it is short work for a commander
to justify the field grade promotions.

But if you're parked at a unit with limited ability to participate for personal reasons, then Captain is an appropriate
grade, and any further work on PD or projects should be recognized by PD levels and decorations.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 12:07:46 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


GroundHawg
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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2014, 12:34:46 AM »

As a side note, the C-27 pictured is from the Ohio ANG at Mansfield Lahm Airport, Mansfield OH. The were to take the place of the C-130's which had been at Mansfield for some time. The C-27's are now gone, and the C-130's are back in service!

On as side, side, note, I have worked the plane pictured. I really liked the Spartans and thought that the Army would pick them to replace the Sherpas. My last deployment was a joint one, we loved the STOL and could get to quite a few FOBs that were too small for other AC. The only thing that sucked is that a 10K AT loader will not fit into one, so if a C130 would not fit at the strip, and a C27 would, you would have to hot drop loads out the tail and then manually stack a bunch of pallets into the plane later, basically building a pallet one piece at a time, through the tail, inside the aircraft. Let me tell you, that sucks on epic proportions.
The USFS and USCG are getting a great platform (though expensive) and I hope to see them put to good use. It is insane to have basically new aircraft sitting in an Arizona boneyard.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2014, 02:44:38 AM »

Advancement beyond captain is political.

That statement should be etched on a bronze plaque and mounted at NHQ on a marble pillar.


It's not just political. Ass kissing may be required as well.
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Private Investigator
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« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2014, 10:22:31 AM »

Advancement beyond captain is political.

That statement should be etched on a bronze plaque and mounted at NHQ on a marble pillar.


It's not just political. Ass kissing may be required as well.

Ass kissing is a POV. An unfriendly person may think a friendly person is an ass kisser just because.

Every Unit is different. Some Units you just check what needs to be checked off and you got the next grade regardless how little you really know or participate. Other Units you really have to earn a rating in a speciality, you really have to "earn" what you get. Lot of our members have entitlement issues. YMMV  8)
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JeffDG
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« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2014, 01:09:50 PM »

Sometimes it doesn't have to do with a "comfort zone," often it has to do with a personality type.

I don't know how familiar any of you are with the Myers-Briggs personality tests (which are themselves based on Jungian personality classifications), but those are usually a good indicator.

I tend to fall into the ISFJ category.

http://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality

No, it is a "comfort zone".  I'm an Extreme ISTJ myself, with emphasis on the "I".  Does it make it more difficult to deal with new people and accept new responsibilities?  Yep.  The question is then, so what?  If I want to advance, that's on me, not someone else.  I have zero right to demand that someone else accommodate me and my personality type if I want something from them.  It's up to me to find ways that I can make myself a valuable addition to the team and show my value.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: 1949 Problems - CAP Uniforms, Grade and Saluting
 


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