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LSThiker
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2014, 11:41:52 PM »

Back on topic, it would be wonderful to get the opinions of tbe previous CAP-USAF commanders on CAP.  I wonder what they would say our biggest problems and strengths are.  That is their unrestricted, non-political opinions.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 12:31:17 PM »


With regard to CAP, on paper I think we are closer to the Air Force than the ANG is, because we do not have dual-status as State/Federal.

I've served in the Air National Guard as well and can't agree with this statement.

Just being pedantic.

You or me? You expressed an opinion and so did I. Our experiences have obviously been different.

Back on topic, it would be wonderful to get the opinions of tbe previous CAP-USAF commanders on CAP.  I wonder what they would say our biggest problems and strengths are.  That is their unrestricted, non-political opinions.

Agree. That would be an interesting insight.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2014, 02:15:32 PM »


With regard to CAP, on paper I think we are closer to the Air Force than the ANG is, because we do not have dual-status as State/Federal.

I've served in the Air National Guard as well and can't agree with this statement.

Just being pedantic.

You or me? You expressed an opinion and so did I. Our experiences have obviously been different.

No, no, old son.  Me.  I should have specified that.  Pedantry is one of my worst, and most obvious, defects of character.

Back on topic, it would be wonderful to get the opinions of tbe previous CAP-USAF commanders on CAP.  I wonder what they would say our biggest problems and strengths are.  That is their unrestricted, non-political opinions.

Agree. That would be an interesting insight.

Agreed as well.  I would especially be interested in hearing the opinion of whoever was CC CAP-USAF when the infamous "Harwell incident" took place.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2014, 03:45:04 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 04:46:39 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.

I wonder what you would define as "normal."  I think it's very much a YMMV issue, depending on Wing, Group or even Squadron level.

My own squadron has a Lieutenant Colonel, three Majors (one of whom is the CC and one a former CC), four Captains (myself included), two 1st Lts, and two 2nd Lts.

I remember one squadron in another wing commanded by a SMWOG...this person was the one who got the squadron going and was a Major last time I heard.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2014, 05:36:28 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.

I wonder what you would define as "normal."  I think it's very much a YMMV issue, depending on Wing, Group or even Squadron level.

My own squadron has a Lieutenant Colonel, three Majors (one of whom is the CC and one a former CC), four Captains (myself included), two 1st Lts, and two 2nd Lts.

I remember one squadron in another wing commanded by a SMWOG...this person was the one who got the squadron going and was a Major last time I heard.
Its going to vary at the squadron level -- certainly possible to have a cadet squadron run by 3 Lt. Cols with no other senior members.

But, at the wing and national level it is pyramid shaped, except for the oddities of the 100 or so NCOs and the new people in SM status.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2014, 08:07:50 PM »

The CAP and Air Force Grade structures are not comparable for several reasons.

1. CAP does not have an "Up or out" policy on advancements, nor High Year Tenure.

2. Professional Development past Level I is not required and is voluntary in nature.

3. No age limit on CAP membership.

4. No mandatory retirements.

So when a unit has a plethora of Senior Officers, it must be viewed as the natural result of those features listed.
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Michael P. McEleney
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RiverAux
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2014, 08:57:27 PM »

The CAP and Air Force Grade structures are not comparable for several reasons.

1. CAP does not have an "Up or out" policy on advancements, nor High Year Tenure.

2. Professional Development past Level I is not required and is voluntary in nature.

3. No age limit on CAP membership.

4. No mandatory retirements.

So when a unit has a plethora of Senior Officers, it must be viewed as the natural result of those features listed.
5.  Most prior military service officers are going to soon be at their prior rank after joining and this group does comprise a small, but not minor component of senior members. 
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2014, 09:33:17 PM »

One issue with the CAP promotion system is that specialty track requirements are not applied evenly throughout each specialty. For example, while is possible for a Professional Development Officer or Administrative Officer to earn their Master Rating without ever serving beyond the unit level, Operations Officers and Emergency Services Officers must serve at the wing or higher to earn this rating. And while an Operations Officer or Safety Officer only needs 12 months of services as a Senior rated officer in their specialty, Logistics Officers and Cadet Programs Officers require 18 months. Heck, Emergency Services Officers need at least three years at the wing level after attaining the Senior rating.

I understand some of the differences due to the nature of the specialty track and associated duty assignments, but there should be some level of consistency across the board.
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2014, 10:46:42 PM »

"Consistency" and "CAP" in the same thought?

There's a novel approach. >:D

Another issue, though this is comparatively quite few, are those who have earned their Spaatz who decide to transfer to senior status (as Captains).

My first squadron had one of those - an exceptional young woman - but found she hated senior status.  I went from her having to salute me to having to salute her, as I was a 1st Lt when she transferred.

Unlike CAP, most SDF's require prior-service to come in at their prior-service grade and promote from there (including to warrant or commissioned status), whereas almost all of our new members come in and automatically gain officer status after six months, prior-service or not.

We also don't have any sort of "initial entry training" like most SDF's.  It would (to me) be beneficial for CAP to be able to provide something like this, at the Wing or even Group level, over a weekend (or several) on a military installation (even a National Guard armoury).  I don't mean being yelled at by MTI's necessarily, but really given the nitty-gritty of the function of CAP, how it relates to the Air Force, grade structure, C&C's, basic D&C's, our three Congressionally-mandated missions, and how to wear (and not wear!) the uniform, rather than just the (IMO) rather poor Level I generally being given now.

Of course, there would be problems with finding volunteers to teach it, although the nearly-moribund CAP-RAP could perhaps get a shot in the arm from this, with Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve Officers and Airmen granted creditable service to do so.
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BillB
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2014, 02:31:13 AM »

As to CAP commendeering vehicles, up to the 1990's CAP was eligible to obtain a DoD drivers license. The license specified types of vehicles authorized. Mine had 4x4 deuce and a half and 26 passn'gr bus authorized. CAP could REQUEST the use of a vehicle for CAP use. The old Orlando Naval Training Center allowed CAP to use Navy vehicles if the driver held a DoD license. To get such a license involved taking a written test and demonstrating to the Motor Pool Officer the ability to drive the vehicle. Basically the same as any civilian does to get their first drivers license. It took a full weekend at McDill AFB to get my DoD license in 1962.
Being able to request a bus at Wright Patterson for cadet tour of the Air Force Museum was one of the benefits of having the license. At other times it benefited USAF by not having to supply a driver at encampments and other activities on a USAF base.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2014, 02:57:42 AM »

Sounds like another thing that went sour for us in the 1990s. >:(
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PHall
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2014, 03:01:35 AM »

Sounds like another thing that went sour for us in the 1990s. >:(

Went sour because of a bus accident in California Wing.  AF Bus + CAP Driver (with AF Drivers Licence) = Big Mess.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2014, 03:18:01 AM »

As to CAP commendeering vehicles, up to the 1990's CAP was eligible to obtain a DoD drivers license. The license specified types of vehicles authorized. Mine had 4x4 deuce and a half and 26 passn'gr bus authorized. CAP could REQUEST the use of a vehicle for CAP use. The old Orlando Naval Training Center allowed CAP to use Navy vehicles if the driver held a DoD license. To get such a license involved taking a written test and demonstrating to the Motor Pool Officer the ability to drive the vehicle. Basically the same as any civilian does to get their first drivers license. It took a full weekend at McDill AFB to get my DoD license in 1962.
Being able to request a bus at Wright Patterson for cadet tour of the Air Force Museum was one of the benefits of having the license. At other times it benefited USAF by not having to supply a driver at encampments and other activities on a USAF base.
Up untill 2006 at least....CAP could still get vehicles from the motor pool.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2014, 03:24:17 AM »

..and that wouldn't be the end of bus shenanigans though. ;)
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JeffDG
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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2014, 02:21:55 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.
I can tell you that as of yesterday, my wing has:
Col:  1
Lt Col: 50
Maj:  78
Capt:  89
1st Lt: 60
2nd Lt:  58
SM:  92
Sgt:  1
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2014, 02:49:14 PM »

No past Wing or Region Commanders in the Wing?
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Michael P. McEleney
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LSThiker
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2014, 04:02:27 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.

This was brought up a while back and NHQ published the numbers for the rank structure. Essentially, it was a 1:1:1 ratio for 2d Lt through Lt Col. Obviously not true for SM and Col and above.   Although I think captain was higher at 1.4, but essentially the same. So we do not have a pyramid.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2014, 05:39:42 PM »

Quote
The main problem there, they made fast promotions. People were named colonel and each state had so many of them with wealth and who had airplanes who were named colonel.

I wonder to what extent that was true back then.  It is still the stereotype today that everyone is a Colonel even though the actual data conclusively shows that we have a normal pyramid shaped distribution of officers in various ranks.
I can tell you that as of yesterday, my wing has:
Col:  1
Lt Col: 50
Maj:  78
Capt:  89
1st Lt: 60
2nd Lt:  58
SM:  92
Sgt:  1

While I'm sure not all of these members are active, as of 30 Oct, my wing had the following:

Col: 18
Lt Col: 302
Maj: 319
Capt: 422
1st Lt: 301
2d Lt: 322
CMSgt: 0
SMSgt: 1
MSgt: 4
TSgt: 2
SSgt: 0
SM: 404
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Eclipse
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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 05:58:31 PM »

While I'm sure not all of these members are active,

The core of the issue (not aimed at you).

Few of the numbers published by NHQ as "statistics" have any value in shaping action
because the numbers aren't "clean".

Every one of those eagles could be a unit CC, or an empty shirt.

The fact that the organization tends to be top heavy with captains >might< also be interesting.

Are they pilots brought in a captains?  If so, why are we crying for pilots all the time?

Do members top out at captain because that's where the ROI ends, and there's no incentive for the average member to advance
(especially considering no job is closed because of lack of advancement).

Is the bureaucracy for advancement past captain so boggling that commanders delay and defer or members don't' want to bother?
Or related, the made-up, subjective bar is different for almost every member so things get denied when they should be approved?

The one about having too many captains and not enough pilots should be a discussion point.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 06:02:46 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: 1949 Problems - CAP Uniforms, Grade and Saluting
 


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