drivel... was: Navy Awards on Cap Uniform

[Storm Chaser]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

Or a grey blazer coat?

So... grey trousers (check), white shirt (check), black blazer (check), USAF shade blue tie (Huh?!?) 

Except that the blazer is actually navy blue.

Oh, I always thought it was black, my bad.

Still, two shades of blue that don't match kinda look "off" to me.  :-

I don't think the difference in shade is that noticeable, but YMMV. Until recently, the Army wore black tie with their green Class A uniform. And now, the Army wears different shades of blues for the service coat and trousers of their ASU.

[LSThiker]

I don't think the difference in shade is that noticeable, but YMMV. Until recently, the Army wore black tie with their green Class A uniform. And now, the Army wears different shades of blues for the service coat and trousers of their ASU.

The tie is still black

[Ned]

The problem is we do not have a uniform, we have wardrobe options -

How, exactly, is that a problem?  (Other than the subjective component of "I think that's too many.)

Not counting minor variations like long sleeve vs short sleeve, outergarments, etc., by my count, we have 9 uniforms:

1.  AF-style Service Dress
2.  Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform
3.  Blazer
4.  Corporate Working Uniform (Polo)
5.  Former AF-style BDU
6.  Corporate Field Uniform (BBDU)
7.  AF-style Flight Duty Uniform
8.  Corporate Flight Duty Uniform
9.  Mess Dress

By coincidence the US Army has 9 major uniform types:

1.  Service Dress
2.  Army Combat Uniform (ACU)
3.  Aircrew Uniform
4.  Combat Vehicle Crewman Uniform
5. Physical Fitness Uniform (PFU)
6.  Food Service Uniform
7.  Hospital Duty Uniform
8.  Blue Mess Uniform
9.  White Mess Uniform


(See the Army Uniform Regulation)


Again, I suspect is a weird conicidence, but our AF colleagues also seem to have 9 major uniform styles:

1.  Service Dress
2.  Mess Dress
3.  Air Force Physical Fitness Uniform
4.  Informal Uniform (Polo)
5.  ABU
6.  Flight Duty Uniform (several variants)
7.  Air Force Food Service Uniform
8.  Flight Attendant Uniform
9.  Medical Scrubs.

See AFI 36-2903

Of course, reasonable minds might do the counting a bit differently, but the point remains that we have about the same number of uniform combinations as everyone else.  Certainly the Army and the AF have different missions and needs than we do.  We don't need surgical scrubs or a Flight Attendant uniform, for instance.  They don't need uniform alternatives for members that do not meet the h/w/grooming requirements set for their uniforms.

But the reason they have a lot of uniforms is the same reason we do -- we need a lot of different uniforms to get our missions accomplished given the existing outside constraints and conditions.

Just like the Army and the AF.

Yet I hardly ever hear anyone complain about the Army or the Air Force not having a "uniform", but just a lot of "wardrobe options."

What's the difference?

[Alaric]

The problem is we do not have a uniform, we have wardrobe options -

How, exactly, is that a problem?  (Other than the subjective component of "I think that's too many.)

Not counting minor variations like long sleeve vs short sleeve, outergarments, etc., by my count, we have 9 uniforms:

1.  AF-style Service Dress
2.  Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform
3.  Blazer
4.  Corporate Working Uniform (Polo)
5.  Former AF-style BDU
6.  Corporate Field Uniform (BBDU)
7.  AF-style Flight Duty Uniform
8.  Corporate Flight Duty Uniform
9.  Mess Dress

By coincidence the US Army has 9 major uniform types:

1.  Service Dress
2.  Army Combat Uniform (ACU)
3.  Aircrew Uniform
4.  Combat Vehicle Crewman Uniform
5. Physical Fitness Uniform (PFU)
6.  Food Service Uniform
7.  Hospital Duty Uniform
8.  Blue Mess Uniform
9.  White Mess Uniform


(See the Army Uniform Regulation)


Again, I suspect is a weird conicidence, but our AF colleagues also seem to have 9 major uniform styles:

1.  Service Dress
2.  Mess Dress
3.  Air Force Physical Fitness Uniform
4.  Informal Uniform (Polo)
5.  ABU
6.  Flight Duty Uniform (several variants)
7.  Air Force Food Service Uniform
8.  Flight Attendant Uniform
9.  Medical Scrubs.

See AFI 36-2903

Of course, reasonable minds might do the counting a bit differently, but the point remains that we have about the same number of uniform combinations as everyone else.  Certainly the Army and the AF have different missions and needs than we do.  We don't need surgical scrubs or a Flight Attendant uniform, for instance.  They don't need uniform alternatives for members that do not meet the h/w/grooming requirements set for their uniforms.

But the reason they have a lot of uniforms is the same reason we do -- we need a lot of different uniforms to get our missions accomplished given the existing outside constraints and conditions.

Just like the Army and the AF.

Yet I hardly ever hear anyone complain about the Army or the Air Force not having a "uniform", but just a lot of "wardrobe options."

What's the difference?

As you state the reasoning behind the various military uniforms are functional, not based on the member.  If mess dress is required for instance, everyone is wearing mess dress not some people wear mess dress, some people wear a sports coat.   If the required uniform is a flight suit, they are all wearing the same flight suit, etc.  Our uniforms are based on member category.  We do not need multiple uniforms to meet most of our missions.  For instance Cadets do not need to be in a military uniform to learn leadership or even drill, they could accomplish the same in a G/W style uniform, since they have no military decorations, they would be unaffected in terms of their  awards and accoutrements and then all seniors could be in the same uniform as the cadets they were instructing.  We do not need two different colors of field uniform or flight suit to accomplish our mission, we could accomplish our missions with 4 uniforms

G/W
Flight Suit
Field Uniform
Polo

If people really felt there was a need for it, a G/W "service dress" could be developed.  Cadets and Seniors doing the same activity would all be in the same uniform, instruction in the wear of the uniform would be accomplished by people wearing it.

[Eclipse]

What's the difference?

The military pays for, or provides a clothing allowance for the uniforms the personnel wears.
There is no variation or difference because of H/W or grooming.

Whatever the MOS or role, the personnel have a tight specification in regards to >what< they will
wear, >when< they will wear it, and the color and material of the components.  Variances are not allowed.

The only reason CAP has the same number of variations is the inability to put all members into a
uniform.

CAP should have only four (4) Flight, Field, Service, and Mess, five (5) if the gold remained an option.
It's only got nine because of the duplication.

If NHQ was issuing uniforms, a lot less people would care as much, but when you have to write your
own checks, then you have a right to be concerned.

And if the rules were enforced equally, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[lordmonar]

Ok we are back to the same argument.  Ditch the USAF style and break our connection with USAF or keep the status quo. 

[Alaric]

Ok we are back to the same argument.  Ditch the USAF style and break our connection with USAF or keep the status quo.

Or mandate H/W/ Grooming requirements and make everyone who doesn't conform leave.  I don't care whether we ditch the USAF style or mandate the H/W/Grooming but pick one and go forth. 

[Eclipse]

Ok we are back to the same argument.  Ditch the USAF style and break our connection with USAF or keep the status quo.

The >best< option is having the USAF relax and getting everyone into the same uniform.
There are >plenty< of good justificaitons >for< it, and few against.

Or do good ORM so the baby is safe but the water is changed.

Step #1: full enforcement of grooming and H/W.

That relieves some of the issue immediately by leveling the playing field for everyone.  No exceptions, no waivers.

After that happens, and assuming it continues to be enforced, AT ALL LEVELS, the uniform issue
is fixed within a year, guaranteed.

As soon as the gander is in the same places as the goose, people will care and action will happen.

Also, if someone can explain >why< #1 isn't already done, you'd probably have answers to a number of
questions that are also troubling CAP.

The "answer" is not "We seem to get the mission done, regardless".  That's an excuse, and a cop-out, not an answer.

[LSThiker]

The >best< option is having the USAF relax and getting everyone into the same uniforms.

I would be floored if the USAF were to relax on their uniform.  I think we would have a better chance of telling the Air Force we were going to adopt only the corporates and drop the USAF uniform.  I still remember when members were not allowed to wear rank on the BDUs if they did not meet H/W and/or grooming.  Talk about confused at first when members would call a person Lt Col, but he wore CAP cutouts. 

[PHall]

Ahh, good... thought I missed something with all of the reg changes this year.

shuman14, why are you so fired up about something that doesn't affect you?

Because he's bored and a self admitted TROLL.

You call me a troll because you consider me an "outsider"

No, I call you a troll because YOU even called yourself a troll when asked several months ago why you make so many "pointed" comments.

Cite please.

This was too easy: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329301#msg329301

Thanks Dave. They'll be something extra in the envelope this week!

[Fubar]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo?

Anything "formal" for starters, not to mention the credibility of inspecting cadets, etc.

Nothing says "Pass In Review" like the golf shirt.

All of which are conducted by cadets, who aren't allowed to wear polos. As for formal events, I'd agree a polo typically isn't appropriate.

[Eclipse]

Who do you think is "reviewing" them?

[Fubar]

Who do you think is "reviewing" them?

For some reason I had a mental picture of adults marching with the cadets. Point taken.

That said, we now have two minutes a year where a polo is a bad idea for CP.

[Eclipse]

That said, we now have two minutes a year where a polo is a bad idea for CP.

Two minutes?  If you're involved in the CAP, and especially encampments, NCSAs, or
similar formal events, it's a lot more then "two minutes".

As a cadet, receiving a promotion or award, dressed to the 9's, taking the afternoon to
measure your badges, do you want to be in photos, or report to, SM Couldntcareless
in his golf shirt and TAC pants?

And if you're on the SM side, and have never worn ribbons, or measured a badge, you've
got no business inspecting anyone else.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Except that there are obviously people throughout CAP who are not concerned with being in a proper uniform, PD, ranks, ribbons, etc.

Do not misconstrue.  It is not the be-all and end-all of CAP, but it is one way we get "paid," as well as promoting esprit de corps.

I have mentioned the senior squadron where I was really the square peg in the round hole - uniforms "optional," a load of pilots who never moved past Second Lieutenant, and the openly-stated misconception that the only uniform needed was the golf shirt and grey trousers (even those were "optional" - faded Levi's were more common), which is of course, not regulation.

It seems that attitude has rapidly spread throughout CAP...more like the Young Marines, where only the cadets wear uniforms (ribbons on BDU's - ugh) and the adult volunteers wear a golf shirt with the YM crest: "uniforms are for cadets, and adults don't go in for that."

I've waxed eloquently about my first squadron.  If they had not been the squared-away unit they were, the chances are extremely good that I would not have bothered to join CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The >best< option is having the USAF relax and getting everyone into the same uniform.
There are >plenty< of good justificaitons >for< it, and few against.

Except that it's not going to happen.  Why should the USAF emulate the way a sister service treats their Auxiliary?

I would be floored if the USAF were to relax on their uniform.  I think we would have a better chance of telling the Air Force we were going to adopt only the corporates and drop the USAF uniform.  I still remember when members were not allowed to wear rank on the BDUs if they did not meet H/W and/or grooming.  Talk about confused at first when members would call a person Lt Col, but he wore CAP cutouts. 

I remember those days too.

The USAF is not going to relax on their uniform.  Why?  They don't have to, and they do not care about disgruntled CAP members who cannot wear their attractive uniform and are instead forced into bloody awful "corporate" uniforms.

If we were to tell the USAF we were going to drop their uniform, I doubt they would care.  Except for upper echelons and some enlightened souls on some AFB/ARB/ANGB's, they don't even really know who we are, nor care.

It'd be more like "OK, at least no more fat and fuzzy CAPpies can look like overstuffed sausages in our uniform"...ignoring the fact they have not a few gepolsterten Wurst throughout their ranks.

[BFreemanMA]

To piggyback off of what others like CyBorg have said, there is a certain matter of pride, in my opinion, in one's dress.

When I first joined CAP, I was thinner than I am now. I bought and wore my dress blues and BDUs with pride because, to me, the quality and care I put into my clothes is the first outward manifestation of who I am as a person. I was not prior service, so I considered it a privilege to wear my country's uniform and I made sure I did so with the respect due to all those who have served or are serving.

After getting married, I let myself go a bit. I'm still within height and weight requirements, but my belly is a bit larger than I would like in dress blues since I carry nearly all of my weight on my stomach. Therefore, I have chosen to wear G/Ws while maintaining a strict diet and exercise regimen. I wear G/Ws with the same level of dignity and care as I do my service dress. However, if someone was limited to wearing solely G/Ws due to medical issues or otherwise, I can understand how one might feel anger at others who are wearing service dress but are not 'legally' able to do so. In their eyes, they are following the regulations and are upset when they see others shirking this responsibility to follow the regs. I have not personally seen this in my career, but I can see where many's anger at the "duoform" stems.

I also do not own a polo shirt, but that is solely out of personal preference. It is a valid uniform and many enjoy wearing it. I have no problem with that (in fact, I often wear polo shirts in my 'civilian' career as a teacher), but I found that wearing dress blues, BDUs, G/Ws tends to force me to aspire to a higher level of excellence when in my role as a CAP member. For me, it is a mental, state-of-mind effect that I feel I must work harder to honor my squadron mates who are working hard, as well as to honor those who are serving out country in active duty, reserves, or the guard. Others are able to effectively get their job done in a polo.

To each their own, so long as they remain in the regulations, I suppose.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Well stated.

I have a full set of dress blues hanging in my closet that I cannot wear because of H/W...thanks to a medical condition which means I have to take medication that has packed too many pounds on me.

I know, I know..."suck it up and be a good little boy, wear your G/W's, sit down and colour."

[Storm Chaser]

Except that our parent Service still does not practice what they preach in a lot of ways.  I know the standards have been changed since I was in, to percentages/BMI, but I still see not a few Airmen, including some senior NCO's (who, of all people, should know better), who would likely not fit the standards of H/W imposed on CAP.  I believe that is called "do as I say, not as I do." 

I know this post is two weeks old, but I'm going to respond anyway.

Unlike in CAP where wearing the Air Force-style uniform is a PRIVILEGE, not a right, in the U.S. Air Force every Airman has the right and obligation to wear their uniforms while on duty. Unlike CAP where those who are overweight have an alternate uniform (regardless of your feelings toward that uniform), in the U.S. Air Force there's no such thing; slim, built, and overweight Airmen have to wear the same uniform. Finally, unlike in CAP where those who are not fit can join and continue to serve pretty much indefinitely, in the U.S. Air Force that's not the case. Airmen who are not fit or are overweight are enrolled in special fitness programs and if they cannot meet the standards within a specified period of time, they get referral performance reports, miss out on promotions, awards or special assignments, and even risk being discharged from the Air Force. No such thing happens in CAP.

A lot has changed in the U.S. Air Force (to include the Guard and Reserve) during my 18 years of service. The Air Force has been working in the last few years to change the lax fitness culture that prevailed for decades to one of "fit to flight". It may take a few more years, but I'm already seeing the change and, while the current fitness program is not perfect, we're moving in the right direction.

That said, CAP standards regarding the Air Force-style uniform are there for a reason. With the numerous uniform violations that are constantly being discussed on this board, I'm surprised the U.S. Air Force still allows CAP to wear THEIR uniform. Before we go asking for new corporate uniforms that look more "military" or relaxation on the current Air Force-style uniform wear policy, how about we all comply with current standards? How about we put the complaining aside for awhile and work on fixing the many problems that CAP is facing right now? And more importantly, how about we show a little respect for our parent service? After all, aren't we CAP officers? Let's behave as such.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

All well and good, but a bit oversimplified.

As I said, I, and I suspect a good many others, would very much like to meet the Air Force's standards.

However, in my case, and, again, many others, we have physical disabilities (such as thyroid problems and other problems that render us unable to vigorously exercise) or are on medications that we have to have.  I could quit taking my medications, and within probably a few months the extra pounds would drop off.  However, my wife would probably be burying me before that.

When I have worn the blue uniform (and I got married in it), I have worn it exactly to specifications: always cleaned, pressed, ribbons cleaned, shoes shined, etc.  I had long hair and a beard when I joined CAP.  I got a military haircut and shaved my beard.

I can feel safe in saying that if you, a USAF officer, would have inspected me in the blue uniform, you would have found nothing out of place.  I doubt a Blue Rope MTI could have.  That sounds egotistical, but it is true.

Once when I was wearing the blue uniform, a CMSgt noticed that my nameplate was very, very slightly off kilter and asked me for permission to adjust, which I of course gave.  I then asked him if anything else needed attention, and he said "no, you're fine."  I would think if I were wearing the uniform improperly, he would have noticed.

What my problem is, is that I (and others with medical conditions) am being penalised for something I have no control over (and I have talked to my doctor about it).  I believe there is a difference between cases I have cited and those who CHOOSE to be couch potatoes, eat too many Big Macs, etc.  The Air Force appears unwilling or unable to take that into account.  The Air Force has every right to tell Active, Reserve and Guard personnel to "get fit or get out," but I would lay very good odds that these Airmen do not have medical conditions such as I and many other CAP colleagues have.  If they did, they would be DQ'd from service to begin with or be hiding it at the risk of being caught out and kicked out for Fraudulent Enlistment.

If the AF would stop us from wearing THEIR uniform (and I am aware it is THEIR uniform; I was in the ANG), I would not necessarily be opposed...as long as we would not default to the status quo "corporates."  My big problem with those is that they are colourless, have nothing to do with our heritage and nothing identifiable with aviation of any kind.

Nonetheless, despite the fact that I do not like the uniform, I wear the G/W as prescribed - cleaned, pressed, badging in the right places, etc.