PIC Seat for Cadet Orientation Flights

[LTCTerry]

CAPP 52-7 ensures everyone understands an orientation flight is not an instructional flight. The PIC of an airplane will sit in the left seat, even if a CFI. CAPP 52-7 goes on to say, though, that the PIC may sit in the rear seat of a glider.

I'm curious what the reason(s) might be for prohibiting the right seat but permitting the rear one. Ideas? Thoughts?

I realize in a 172/182 the view right vs left seat is pretty much a mirror image while the difference between front and rear in the glider is rather substantial.

[Flying Pig]

Because an o-Ride is not for the purposes of flight instruction and and there is no requirement to be a CFI to do O-Rides.  Probably best to just keep everyone in the seats they belong in.  Being a CFI myself, learning to fly competently from the other seat is a big part of the training.  Especially landing.  Could someone do it?  Yes.  But its not a mirror image, and its not the same.  With a glider weight and balance can be an issue determining who sits front or back.

[LTCTerry]

But its not a mirror image

I wasn't clear. The view for the PIC is indeed different left/right seat. What I intended to say was that for a Cadet in the right seat looking out the right window or in the left seat looking out the left window is essentially a mirror image. Ditto for the Cadet's diagonal view across the nose.

With a glider weight and balance can be an issue determining who sits front or back.

Solo is from the front seat. Cadets or others too light even with ballast must sit in the back. There's no pilot/instructor combo I can think of that would require the PIC to be in the rear seat for weight and balance reasons.

This still doesn't address the issue of why sitting in the "instructor's seat" is specifically prohibted for one aircraft and specifically permitted for another. There is no reason glider orientation flights couldn't all be flown from the front seat, yet flying from the rear is allowed.

a CFI myself

Me too.

[a2capt]

Because in a Glider, the front view is part of the experience and a passenger does typically sit in the front. Everything the perspective is largely the same whether 3 feet forward or not, it's situated so you see a little over the person in the front, especially if it's a typical cadet stature. All the controls are in both places.

Otherwise, with powered flight, it's implied that the PIC will sit in the left seat as it's an orientation flight, not training flight as described, that sets the tone.

Also, many orientation ride pilots are -not- CFI's, and as such flying from the right side is different as you know. When I would take cadets in a Citabria, I flew from the back. Front to back wasn't much of a change because you're working more off periphery than forward visuals, but left to right to me was different in a weird way, even though I had lots of concurrent tandem airframe time.

[Flying Pig]

But its not a mirror image

I wasn't clear. The view for the PIC is indeed different left/right seat. What I intended to say was that for a Cadet in the right seat looking out the right window or in the left seat looking out the left window is essentially a mirror image. Ditto for the Cadet's diagonal view across the nose.

With a glider weight and balance can be an issue determining who sits front or back.

Solo is from the front seat. Cadets or others too light even with ballast must sit in the back. There's no pilot/instructor combo I can think of that would require the PIC to be in the rear seat for weight and balance reasons.

This still doesn't address the issue of why sitting in the "instructor's seat" is specifically prohibted for one aircraft and specifically permitted for another. There is no reason glider orientation flights couldn't all be flown from the front seat, yet flying from the rear is allowed.

a CFI myself

Me too.

The cadets view out of the aircraft in a C182 isn't the issue.  its the fact that pilots are taught to fly from the left seat and they don't want pilots deciding to jump in the right seat.  As far as view, yes, front seat is front seat.  Unless you are providing flight instruction there is no reason for the pilot to be in the right seat.   As far as a glider, I was taught to fly from both seats.  The sight pictures are not that much different and the controls are exactly the same front and back in a Glider.   Yes, solo is from the front seat but its really irrelevant because we arent talking about solo flight.  It was explained to me that it was to allow for W&B configurations.  Another reason was since its a "ride" and not an instructional flight, the experience for the passenger varies with what seat they sit in with a glider.  Back seat of a glider is view limiting.  The experience is sitting up front.  When I was flying gliders, I always flew from the back because I took people with me all the time.  I don't know that there is a hard fast reason with the Gliders.  However the FW is pretty much what was described.  They don't want orientation pilots jumping in the right seat.  And if you are a CFI, it probably reinforces that this is not an instructional flight. 

[JeffDG]

Also, many orientation ride pilots are -not- CFI's, and as such flying from the right side is different as you know.

Not a CFI, but I've flown from the right seat on a number of occasions.  Is it different, sure thing.  It's not that bad, though.  I would submit that just about any qualified pilot would be able to safely pilot the aircraft from the right seat.  Will they be as smooth as they're used to, nope.  But they'll be able to fly the plane entirely safely.

The only thing that I really don't like is looking cross-cockpit at instruments, and if I'm in G1000, I'll dispense with that by hitting the Red Button and running in reversionary mode on the MFD!

[Flying Pig]

Also, many orientation ride pilots are -not- CFI's, and as such flying from the right side is different as you know.

Not a CFI, but I've flown from the right seat on a number of occasions.  Is it different, sure thing.  It's not that bad, though.  I would submit that just about any qualified pilot would be able to safely pilot the aircraft from the right seat.  Will they be as smooth as they're used to, nope.  But they'll be able to fly the plane entirely safely.

The only thing that I really don't like is looking cross-cockpit at instruments, and if I'm in G1000, I'll dispense with that by hitting the Red Button and running in reversionary mode on the MFD!

Regardless, thats not exactly the standard I want when my kid goes up for an O-Ride.  Where you are going to usually get into trouble, if you do have trouble, is landing.  Its different enough to be an issue at the worst possible moment.  And in contrast, having flown with many "competent" pilots, Ive seen more than a couple botch a landing from the right seat to the point where I had to take it over.  Pilots who would at least be comparable to the experience level of most CAP pilots.  Ive flown with several pilots who have NEVER flown in the right seat of a 182,172 or 206.  I don't put it past even a CAP pilot to decide to suddenly jump  in right seat for the first time on an O-Ride.

[Mitchell 1969]

The average non-CFI pilot doesn't fly from the right seat. The "trained familiar" is left seat, so why confuse things by having the pilot have the option of "untrained yet legal, but unfamiliar?"

[LTCTerry]

The average non-CFI pilot doesn't fly from the right seat. The "trained familiar" is left seat, so why confuse things by having the pilot have the option of "untrained yet legal, but unfamiliar?"

The average non-CFI glider pilot doesn't fly from the rear seat. The "trained familiar" is front seat, so why confuse things by having the pilot have the option of "untrained yet legal, but unfamiliar?"

[JeffDG]

The average non-CFI pilot doesn't fly from the right seat. The "trained familiar" is left seat, so why confuse things by having the pilot have the option of "untrained yet legal, but unfamiliar?"

The average non-CFI glider pilot doesn't fly from the rear seat. The "trained familiar" is front seat, so why confuse things by having the pilot have the option of "untrained yet legal, but unfamiliar?"

And I know many CFIs who rarely fly from the left seat, so on ORides they're flying in an unfamiliar seat.

My point is that the seat the pilot's sitting in is really not that important, and really, regulations dictating which seat he/she sits in are micromanagerial.