Military Badges

[NIN]

there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.

We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...

This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all.  Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes?  Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?

Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?

Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)

[JC004]

there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.

We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...

This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all.  Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes?  Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?

Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?

Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)

Probably would confuse too many sheeple.  Plus, we like to make our own confusion.  We want to have a manual plus a few dozen change letters just to drive them nuts.

[RogueLeader]

there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.

We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...

This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all.  Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes?  Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?

Why not write a CAP-specific supplement to the USAF uniform manual and be done with it?

Honestly: our military-style uniforms are USAF uniforms with distinctive bits. Why do we need a whole manual parrotting the USAF one? (particularly if its so monolithic that it never gets updated)

Probably would confuse too many sheeple.  Plus, we like to make our own confusion.  We want to have a manual plus a few dozen change letters just to drive them nuts.

Thats after we write conflicting manuals to start with.

[mikeylikey]

NOT SO HARD to update 39-1 as they made all of the changes since 2005.  I am guessing here, but I am sure the "hard" copy or master copy is on someones computer at NHQ.  Everytime they want to change something in the manual or add to it, assign that task out to one of the paid staffers, give them a week and some free donuts and  have them create the new manual.  THEN produce a letter on line saying "go read and download the new 39-1.  They already took pictures for the interim change letters, and wrote down the instructions.  Not that much more to add it to the actual manual.  I have worked that area before, and the most time consuming aspect is searching the entire manual for references back to something you deleted. 

The whole thing is only 130 pages, use a search program to find the word or phrases you want to take out.  Example "search for Senior Member.  Then use the replace button to make Senior Member magically turn into Officer. 

Here is a better idea.....contract the work out to anyone who wants to take on the job.  They could easily say "hey CAP volunteers, who would like to help us update 39-1". 

Just my thoughts!

[Dustoff]

Everything on that aircraft - except the parachutes - was made by the lowest bidder

By the way, all of us are low bid also.

Just a thought..............

Jim

Tags - MIKE

[SAR-EMT1]

MY great uncle was one of the Glider Troops the night before D-Day... too bad they dont still have Gliders. I dont think he was ever in CAP but he wore the badge front and center on his VFW cover. 

[Hammer]

When I was at Ramstein, I saw an Air Force SP wearing a Ranger tab on his BDU's.  The fact that he also had an EIB and Jump Wings probably explains it.  I've seen quite a few Air Force Officers and EM's wearing a Ranger tab on their blues at the AFA Conventions.

[Hammer]

I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms.  Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.

I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.

But the AFI DOES say that you CAN WEAR the badges.

[Hammer]

[This is as of 2005.  I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date.  In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA.  Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

Do Government Contractors get the OSD badge as well, like the Civil Service people do?

[Hammer]

In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.

 

EXACTLY

[Stonewall]

[This is as of 2005.  I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date.  In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA.  Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

Do Government Contractors get the OSD badge as well, like the Civil Service people do?

In order to wear an award or badge, you have to have competent orders awarding you said badge.

As for civilians wearing awards they've earned while working for the military, I believe that would be a whole different can of worms.  We had a member in my last wing who had never served in the military but wore some sort of Unit Award above all of her CAP ribbons because she was a civilian working for an office that recieved the award.

There are civilian service awards for civil service employees, but CAP does not identify them as being authorized for wear on CAP uniforms.

The OSD badge is a military award.  I've seen civilians wear an OSD badge lapel pin on their suit, but chances are they are former military, but that's just a guess.

[Stonewall]

In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.

 

EXACTLY

What is the point of saying this?  Are you just saying "grow up people" in general?  Or are you just angrily speaking to CAP's uniform board?  No one on this forum board has said anything about not recognizing peoples' achievements in the military.

We have, however, discussed what is and isn't identified in CAP regulations as being authorized for wear on CAP uniforms, which may or may not be the same as the Air Force Instruction.

And just because you see someone wearing something, i.e. a Ranger Tab on their Air Force BDUS, doesn't mean the Air Force is cool with it.  It just means that they did it anyway.  While I was at a PJ squadron a  lot of guys wore Ranger Tabs, even around home station base.  No one cared and no one questioned them.  Not a big deal.

[mikeylikey]

And just because you see someone wearing something, i.e. a Ranger Tab on their Air Force BDUS, doesn't mean the Air Force is cool with it.  It just means that they did it anyway.  While I was at a PJ squadron a  lot of guys wore Ranger Tabs, even around home station base.  No one cared and no one questioned them.  Not a big deal.

Is that like the CAV guys wearing stetsons and and the other junk that was phased out of the army 100 years ago?  I remember at Ft Sill, the custom (at least when I was there) were for the Officers to wear the old style Branch Insignia.  The ones from the late 1860's.  As soon as you left though, you threw the current crossed cannons back on.  I see no problem wearing something that is tolerated up the chain of command.  When it comes down to it, all the individual service member will be told is to remove said device, and his superiors will get the "formal counseling".

[Stonewall]

Just got my order in from Spur Name Tapes 1800nametapes.com and they look identical to the standard military badges.

Got a few sets of white on ultramarine blue Airborne and a few of Air Assault.  Again, perfectly done and only at $2 a set.  nametags4u.com sent the worst excuse for both badges at more than double the price and those went into the trash.

Will post a picture later when I get some time.

[Stonewall]

I see no problem wearing something that is tolerated up the chain of command.  When it comes down to it, all the individual service member will be told is to remove said device, and his superiors will get the "formal counseling".

I agree.

I've always said, you need to know the rules before you break them.  So when you get called on said violation, don't get your panties in bunch because someone's coming down on you.  Smile, say "roger that", and drive on.

Like at work.  I carry a tac-light on my pistol.  Why?  Because I work nights and it makes sense.  Our department's regs say modifications to department issued weapons is not authorized.  In my mind, I'm not modifying, I'm temporarily adding a feature.  Wrong or right, I'll take my chances.  My watch commander and sergeant don't have a problem with it and the brass never see me at night.  I draw my weapon an average of once a month so yes, the light is practical, not just tactical.

[DNall]

The BSA was just an example.  My point is...different organization with its own awards and decorations, why do people insist on being "allowed" to wear everything they've ever earned on their uniform?  Even the the military, there are things that don't cross branches...

Even on this website, you see the very frequent posts "CAP IS NOT THE AF."  Most people assume that when they look at a uniform, the things you have on that uniform are what you earned in THAT organization.  Wearing a Combat Infantry Badge on a CAP uniform, which is quite recognizable, at a glace implies that it was earned during service to CAP.  How well does that speak to the "non-combat" roles of CAP to the general public.

I can and do appreciate the sacrifices that our military members (past, present, and future) make(made) on a daily basis, but CAP is a completely different entity from DoD, with different missions, volunteer CIVILIAN organization.  

Why not allow them on the CAP distinctive uniforms?  You already have a large chunk of your membership wearing them anyway...

CAP is chartered by congress to be a military based organization, and as the AFAux, is very much part of the AF. The org conducts real military missions at the direction of the military, and while doing so its members are legally designated as emplyees of the AF and by federal and international law as military combatants.

So basicially, every mil badge that the AF auth on their uniforms should be authorized on the CAP uniform you wear while continuning to serve the DoD. They are authorized on teh AF uniform because it belongs to the AF, and not the corp alternatives because they are not as far as the AF is concerned military uniforms. That's the view of the AF, if you don't like it then take it up with them & best of luck to you.

[Stonewall]

Here ya go.  The detail is a bit hard to see in the image, but I assure you the air assault badge looks identical to the ones vangaurd makes for the military.



I think SSG Savage is one of a few people that was interested in white on blue military badges from Spur Name Tapes.  I got these in less than a week and at $2 a piece.

Hooah?  Hooah.

[Rangersigo]

If you are authorized to wear the Army badge, why would you have to have it converted to white/blue.  Why not just wear the Army sub-dued version.  I don't think 39-1 says it has to be this way?  Maybe it does...

On the other hand, if you convert it to blue and white, are you now in violation of 39-1 because it becomes a non-standard award?

Just wondering?

[Rangersigo]

It all comes back to the experience, not the badge. I believe that a system is being developed to draw on the experiences of prior service NCOs; to fully utilize that knowledge base as a training aid and as a counsel for the officers they serve. That is a big reason for me trading my butter bars in for stripes.

I like the idea of a group of individuals with like experiences that can work together toward a common goal, in support of the organization.

rangersigo,

When did you serve? Did I know you?

I was never there at the same time, served 88-90 enlisted, again mid-93 to 94, went to OCS, and again 2001-2002.

Enlisted I was in C/3-75, then at Battalion as an officer...

[Stonewall]

39-1 doesn't say that it has to be one or the other.  It says military badges can be regular air force subdued.  However, I prefer to keep uniformity on my CAP uniform, just personal preference.  

In my last squadron we had something like 8 people with jump wings so we thought it would look cool to all be the same, white on blue.

If you were planning to wear a military badge and CAP badge, I think it would look better to have both of them look the same as well, instead of one subdued and one white/blue.  YMMV.