Senior Member can't wear his NRA Marksman award?

[Storm Chaser]

I think the Air Force leadership (at least those who work directly with CAP) recognizes and appreciates what CAP's membership does for the USAF and our country. The difference might be on what we, the membership, consider important and what they consider important. In the big scheme of things, blue epaulets, metal insignias, a black fleece jacket, etc. is not as important as new aircraft, vehicles, comm equipment, training, etc. Unlike many other volunteer organizations, I think (some) CAP members seem to place too much emphasis in what we wear. And I'm not just talking about the AF-style vs. Corporate-style and H/W dilemma; I'm talking about all the 'bling'... grade insignias, ribbons, badges, patches, etc. IMHO, there's more to a volunteer organization than that.

You make valid points, and you make them well.

However, as someone who serves in both CAP and the Air Force, I am quite certain you are familiar with esprit de corps.

I do, but "esprit de corps" is not achieved by the "bling" members wear on their uniforms, so I respectfully fail to see the point you're trying to make.

I think that the uniform issues, especially about pre-1990s uniforms, come largely from members who served then and immediately after and were punished for something they didn't do.  That's only based on my personal experience as someone who joined in the aftermath of that.

I was one of those "lucky" ones who got to wear the maroon epaulets. I didn't like them, but I never felt like we were being punished. The gray ones came shortly after and, while they didn't look as nice as the blue ones, they've never bothered me that much (although I have to admit that I would prefer not to wear them on the service dress).

The "bling" factor...I remember from my earliest days in CAP having that explained to me as part of our "pay," since we don't get remunerated financially.

I'm going to guess that you are familiar with Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs.  I learnt about it in my college Psych courses.

http://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

I believe that the promotions, ribbons, etc., fit under Needs 3 and 4.  Basically, it's human nature to need a "pat on the back" or an "attaboy/attagirl" now and then.

"Bling" isn't the only way to do it, but I believe it is probably the most tangible way.

I understand that and I'm not against it (heck, I do wear mine, as appropriate). But I still believe that the focus many CAP members place on their "bling" is disproportionate with their purpose and intent. Furthermore, there are many volunteer organizations that don't reward their members with awards, decorations, badges and insignias on their uniform and yet, their members seem happy enough to serve their organizations and communities. How do they get recognized, rewarded or, as you put it, "paid" for their service and efforts?

I think the problem is not that CAP recognizes its members with grade insignias, badges, ribbons and patches, but that that appears to be the primary reason for many members to join or continue their service in CAP. The "bling" is fine, but we can't lose focus on the mission.

[lordmonar]

Except here on this board......I don't think that the majority of CAP members are in it for the bling.

Certainly, it does factor in for most members at some level, especially when they are denied what they feel that they have earned.

But comparing us to other organizations that don't issue bling...is not really fair...because we do issue bling, right, wrong, indifferent....we do.

If we were to stop issuing bling....i.e. everyone going to Polos and Slacks, no ranks, no decorations, no wings, etc......I think that CAP as an emergency services organization would still exist and still function.

So bling in and of itself is not really a problem.....i.e. not one that is really hampering our mission.   

Bling is simply a tool.  A tool to reward good behavior, to reinforce that good behavior, to encourage others to emulate that good behavior.

Sometimes bling is used to establish esprit de corps.....that is pride in your unit...on a smaller scale then BIG CAP/USAF/ARMY/NAVY.
Pride in your unit/team/squad is a good thing.   It helps foster team work.

Of course....like in most everything......there is a line between Pride and Arrogance.   And like like any tool....it needs to be used in the right way, in the right amount, and at the right time.    A hammer is a great tool, for pounding in nails....it sucks for screws......even if you get a sledge.

And that is the key.....not just for rank, decorations, patches, berets, badges, and sometimes hard core names and title......we need to use our tools correctly.

CAP is not just a bunch of people out collecting ribbons, and badges.......even the BSA is not....and the got a lot of bling........we are a service organisation....first and foremost....and I think the vast vast majority of CAP members get it.   

With or with out the bling.

In my experience.....where bling gets in the way is either a) when it is used in the wrong way/time/place, b) when it is is not used "fairly"....that is either not following our own established protocols or too unevenly.

Each and every piece of bling....from the 2d Lt rank, to the beret, to the CAC cords, to the SMoV.......needs to have a precise function.....that is a sort of guiding principle of why we are going to issue it.

It can be as simple as "we want to encourage our members to give of their time to other community services....not involving CAP" (The community Service Ribbon) to "we a way to quickly identify our CAC member to their squadron/group/wing/region peers" (The CAC ropes).

Sometimes the purpose for the bling clashes with other units aims and goals (NBB "we want to establish esprit de corps and give a visible reward for our participants hard work at AirVenture"....squadron "we want to build esprit de corps and unity by making sure everyone is in the same uniform")......and that's a bad thing....but fixable at the unit level.  No need for the unit commander to take the tool away from NBB or other units....because it does not work at their location.

We all have to remember that CAPTALK is not CAP.   Heck most of your local squadron CAP is not CAP.   Even important, earth shaking events that really does affect BIG CAP often does not even cause a ripple at the squadron level (HWSNB's fiasco was almost invisible to most CAP members at the squadron level....because it did not affect them in a big way....the meetings still went on, missions were still flown, cadets still got to go to encampment.)  The Barry Boards and their children the Gray Boards.......punishment or not......unless you were there and "know" for sure....it is academic for the most part.   We have been gray for going on 10-15 years now...it is "the way it has always been" for the vast majority of CAP, and unless you got another agenda it is really a non-issue.

So.....here we are.   The OP....simply asked a question.    "Cadets get to wear the NRA Badges....why can't senior members".    Not someone who forgot the true focus of what CAP is all about....just someone asking "I got one of those....why can't I wear it?"

And the answer is.......a) because it morphed from an award only kids/cadets would earn and b) no one has ever asked that question to the right people yet.

So...to repeat my original suggestion to the OP.....write up a white paper with your suggestion and send it up the chain.

   

[Panache]

No need for us CAPers to be telling what the USAF "NEEDS" to do in their AFI.

When it directly affects 39-1, I respectfully disagree.

[lordmonar]

No need for us CAPers to be telling what the USAF "NEEDS" to do in their AFI.

When it directly affects 39-1, I respectfully disagree.

Sorry.  We can ask for clarification because it does affect 39-1.....but to say "the USAF NEEDS to change AFI 36-2903 because some of our members have a badge not listed in Attachment 5" is a little stiff.

They don't want to even do it for their own members....because they know it will be a PITA.  They expect their own members to contact AFMPC if they have questions......so why should we not do the same?

Your badge not on the list...ask NHQ.

[Panache]

No need for us CAPers to be telling what the USAF "NEEDS" to do in their AFI.

When it directly affects 39-1, I respectfully disagree.

Sorry.  We can ask for clarification because it does affect 39-1.....but to say "the USAF NEEDS to change AFI 36-2903 because some of our members have a badge not listed in Attachment 5" is a little stiff.

...

Your badge not on the list...ask NHQ.

Agreed.

[Shuman 14]

I choose not to sir.

Which might explain why you're not Senior or Chief.

Seriously Master Sergeant, the good Staff Captain's post explains it very nicely.

Every one of your posts, that I've read, seems comes off with a "I'm better than you" attitude attached to it.

I really hope its just something lost in communication via internet because I truly hope you don't talk to people in the real world the way your posts come across here on CAP Talk.

I say that respectfully as I can to one who has given so much for our Country thru long years of service both in the USAF and CAP.

[Ned]

I really hope its just something lost in communication via internet because I truly hope you don't talk to people in the real world the way your posts come across here on CAP Talk.

Something that is certainly true for all of us. 

You and me, included.

[Shuman 14]

I really hope its just something lost in communication via internet because I truly hope you don't talk to people in the real world the way your posts come across here on CAP Talk.

Something that is certainly true for all of us. 

You and me, included.

True Sir, I absolutely concur.

[PHall]

Which might explain why you're not Senior or Chief.

You have no frickin' clue how the Air Force Senior Enlisted Promotion System works, do you?

Maybe you need to do some more reading.

[LSThiker]

Which might explain why you're not Senior or Chief.

You have no frickin' clue how the Air Force Senior Enlisted Promotion System works, do you?

Maybe you need to do some more reading.

Or a talking with the CSM.  That is a pretty uncalled comment, especially from a major.  Even when I was a 2LT, I knew that the SNCO promotion system was not that simple.

[lordmonar]

Let it ride guys....no harm no foul.

[Shuman 14]

Which might explain why you're not Senior or Chief.

You have no frickin' clue how the Air Force Senior Enlisted Promotion System works, do you?

Maybe you need to do some more reading.

Or a talking with the CSM.  That is a pretty uncalled comment, especially from a major.  Even when I was a 2LT, I knew that the SNCO promotion system was not that simple.

Gentlemen,

Of course I know it's "not that simple". There are many factors that effect promotions at any level, among them are time in Grade, time in Service, Military education, civilian education, key assignments and evaluations.

But don't kid yourself in think that a person's personality and reputation does not effect your promotion at a senior level.

The fact is you must be able to speak with tact and respect to all regardless if its up, down, or adjacent.

The days of a senior NCO swearing at lower enlisted just "because" or being "gruff" with officers that are not their actual commander are over and that is a fact.

No one needs a Command Chief or a CSM that cannot speak to a Congressional delegation with due regard and a smile on their face.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But don't kid yourself in think that a person's personality and reputation does not effect your promotion at a senior level.

At almost any level in the military or CAP, actually.

When I had my Level I in 1993 it was emphasised to me that promotion to 2nd Lieutenant after six months was not automatic (at least in those days; it seems to be much more that way now).  It was to be based in large part on my conduct within the unit and willingness to be a journeyman/learner.

[Storm Chaser]

When I had my Level I in 1993 it was emphasised to me that promotion to 2nd Lieutenant after six months was not automatic (at least in those days; it seems to be much more that way now).

It's still supposed to be that way. I've had members without grade for longer than six months because either they weren't ready yet or weren't active contributors. Promotions are not automatic; they have to be earned.

[RiverAux]

Okay, back to the original topic for the moment:

1.  It is clear that cadets are allowed to participate in the training leading to the NRA badge as part of a CAP event.
2.  Seniors are not allowed to participate in the training leading to the NRA badge as part of a CAP event.

However, 39-1 10.6 does not require that the NRA badge be earned by the cadet as part of a CAP event. 

10.6. NRA Marksmanship Badge. Cadets may wear one marksmanship qualification medal/badge earned by completing the requirements of the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program. Documentation in the cadet's personnel record which documents program requirement completion in accordance with published NRA guidelines is authority for wear.

So, a cadet can earn the badge outside of CAP. 

Therefore, this is not really a cadet-only program.  If a senior and a cadet can both earn the same award outside of CAP, then both should be able to wear it on the CAP uniform since it is irrelevant whether they did it while on CAP time. 

We already award patches to both senior and cadet members for other training that could be conducted outside of CAP.  The CPR and EMT patches for example. 

I don't actually think there is a good reason to have an NRA patch at all, but if we are going to have it, it should be open for wear by both seniors and cadets though it should be made clear that seniors would have to have earned it on their own time.  I see no logical reason to limit it to cadets just because they can, but are not required, to earn it while on CAP time. 

[Storm Chaser]

Or, maybe we can eliminate the badge as it serves no purpose in CAP.

[RiverAux]

Or, maybe we can eliminate the badge as it serves no purpose in CAP.

I'm fine with that too.

[Eclipse]

Or, maybe we can eliminate the badge as it serves no purpose in CAP.

I'm fine with that too.

+1

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Or, maybe we can eliminate the badge as it serves no purpose in CAP.

Firearms training is an optional part of the cadet program.

CAP has identified a nationally accepted training standard and incorporated it into the regulations.

The bling for this, while not cheap, is not from Vanguard and CAP did not have to source it.

What's not to love?

Personally I'd add language to limit the Sharpshooter badge to the highest bar earned. It's starts to look South American dictator awfully quickly.

[RiverAux]

The bling for this, while not cheap, is not from Vanguard and CAP did not have to source it.

Why just limit it to the NRA program though when others programs are specifically mentioned in the reg?  Wonder if they've got badges, awards, etc.  If they do, there is no good reason to not allow those to be worn too....