Senior Member can't wear his NRA Marksman award?

[Storm Chaser]

An Army officer shouldn't have to.

Uh, Goldwater-Nichols Act?

Officers of different branches are frequently familiar with sister service's regulations, especially when serving a joint tour.

Is Shuman serving in a joint tour with the Air Force? Is this tour one where he needs to be familiar with all aspects of the Air Force uniform. He read an AFI, one that other Air Force officers have read as well, and came with a different interpretation on it. Yet, he made an "authoritative" statement about an area that, at best, is open ended.

While the AFI covers most Army badges and it's clear that the list is not inclusive, it leaves out one of the most frequently worn badges in the Army. Again, I admit that the way the AFI is written is a bit open ended in that regards. However, when there's a doubt on an Air Force instruction, the appropriate action would be to seek clarification with the OPR or the appropriate CoC. An Army major, who happens to have read the AFI which was just revised a few months ago, is hardly the officer to give authoritative interpretation on it. Reading the text of a law does not make me a lawyer.

And just to clarify, none of my comments were meant as a disrespect to officers in the Army or other services. My issue is that Shuman does this sort of thing all the time, usually when it comes to CAP regulations, standards and procedures. Yet, unless that's changed recently, he's not even an active CAP member nor made any significant contribution to the organization. Anyone can read regulations; that doesn't make someone an expert on the organization.

[Flying Pig]

In CAP, its a badge for kids.  Lets just keep it that way so you don't make yourself look silly when you are interaction with LE, public safety and other DoD organizations.  I would equate it to seeing an Senior walking around with a model rocketry badge. 

[lordmonar]

In CAP, its a badge for kids.  Lets just keep it that way so you don't make yourself look silly when you are interaction with LE, public safety and other DoD organizations.  I would equate it to seeing an Senior walking around with a model rocketry badge.

Someone in another thread.....also suggested that we expand that program to seniors.   

[JeffDG]

In CAP, its a badge for kids.  Lets just keep it that way so you don't make yourself look silly when you are interaction with LE, public safety and other DoD organizations.  I would equate it to seeing an Senior walking around with a model rocketry badge.

Someone in another thread.....also suggested that we expand that program to seniors.   

Only if we're allowed to put actual warheads on the rockets...

[NIN]

Only if we're allowed to put actual warheads on the rockets...

I'm down with that. Senior member program is actually a lot of fun too

[Flying Pig]

Hey..... If Air Force missile officers can wear theirs in CAP uniform I should be able to wear mine for launching my Estes rocket.

[LATORRECA]

I agree

[AirAux]

This too cool.  Now I can wear my expert marksmanship badge from Basic with my bayonet, pistol, rifle, grenade, mortar, bazooka, machinegun attachments.  What is the spirit of the bayonet??  TO KILL, TO KILL!!

[Eclipse]

If you have enough awards, you could wear it as a belt!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

This too cool.  Now I can wear my expert marksmanship badge from Basic with my bayonet, pistol, rifle, grenade, mortar, bazooka, machinegun attachments.  What is the spirit of the bayonet??  TO KILL, TO KILL!!

Please sir, go sit back down on the Group W Bench. 

[THRAWN]

This too cool.  Now I can wear my expert marksmanship badge from Basic with my bayonet, pistol, rifle, grenade, mortar, bazooka, machinegun attachments.  What is the spirit of the bayonet??  TO KILL, TO KILL!!

Please sir, go sit back down on the Group W Bench. 

Zounds, I'm betting there aren't too many who even get that...

[Garibaldi]

This too cool.  Now I can wear my expert marksmanship badge from Basic with my bayonet, pistol, rifle, grenade, mortar, bazooka, machinegun attachments.  What is the spirit of the bayonet??  TO KILL, TO KILL!!

Please sir, go sit back down on the Group W Bench. 

Zounds, I'm betting there aren't too many who even get that...

Along with all the other mother-rapers, father-stabbers....father rapers!  Father raper sittin' right next to me on the Group W Bench!

[a2capt]

...and friends they may thinks it's a movement.
(..I still wonder if that 18.5 minute gap is a coincidence.. )

[THRAWN]

...and friends they may thinks it's a movement.
(..I still wonder if that 18.5 minute gap is a coincidence.. )

A Thanksgiving tradition...and now I'm gonna be humming it all day...

[AirAux]

And the Sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

[SarDragon]

"... just a half a mile from the railroad track ..."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

"'An all kinds o' mean, nasty, ugly things..."

We had a foster girl (actually, probably one of my first pre-adolescent crushes  - don't worry, no relation) who had Alice's Restaurant.  I think I was about 10 years old and played that thing to death.  It's hilarious.  I don't think I ever listened to Side 2 (kids, this is in the day of 33 1/3 LP vinyl records) more than a couple of times.  When she went on to her next foster home (she was a wild child and could not live with my dad's "no means NO!!" ways) she gave me the record.

My friends all dug it (and her!) too.

She's got to be about mid-50s now.  Man, oh, man I feel old.  I guess CAP's appellation of "Senior Member" is all too fitting.

[abdsp51]

At the end of the day the AFI is actually pretty clear on it badges.  Shuman wants to argue a table etc while Chapter 10 makes it quite clear what can be worn from sister services.  The chapter references does not allow the wear of marksmanship badges.  There are marksmanship ribbons and the EIC badge that may be worn. 

[Panache]

This too cool.  Now I can wear my expert marksmanship badge from Basic with my bayonet, pistol, rifle, grenade, mortar, bazooka, machinegun attachments.  What is the spirit of the bayonet??  TO KILL, TO KILL!!

What makes the grass grow?  "BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW!"

[Shuman 14]

In 18 years in the Air Force (including AD, Guard and Reserve), I've never seen former Army Soldiers wearing this particular badge on an Air Force uniform.

They wear the Air Force Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon instead. They get to put a bronze star on it if they qualify "expert" on two or more weapons.

And like you sir, in over 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve, I never ever saw any former Soldier or Marine wearing their former service markmanship badges.

But our friend who posts from the Guard Shack because he's bored and likes to "stir things up" probably won't accept this answer.
meh...

Again the "new" Instruction has only been out about 6 months so that would explain the previous 31 years when it wasn't authorized... it is now.

And you know this because you're in the Air Force...? Right.

No I am not in the Air Force, but I can read a Regulation/Instruction... I remember being taught to do that in Basic Training oh some 24 plus years ago.

Seriously, the regulation is open ended, it is subject to interpretation, and that means various readers are going to interpret it differently.

Does the Instruction specifically exclude Army and Marine Corps Marksmanship Badges? It does not.

Does the Instruction specifically include Army and Marine Corps Marksmanship badges? It does not.

Again I quote from the instruction:

Refer to attachment 5 for a listing of qualification badges and patches authorized (not inclusive).

Which means there are other Badges, not on this list that are authorized on the USAF uniform.

I would submit to you that Marksmanship Badges are include because you simply have to look to Chapter 11 which deals with ribbons and medals to see that the Marksmanship Awards of the Navy and the Coast Guard are specifically authorized for wear for wear on the USAF uniform.

Logic would dictate that if the USAF recognizes the Marksmanship abilities of one prior Service member as proper to be worn on its uniform, it would equally recognize the the Marksmanship abilities of another prior Service member from a second sister Service.

Again I quote to you from the instruction:

Qualification badges are defined as badges earned and permanently awarded that reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission.

I would submit to you that an Army Combat Infantryman's Badge (CIB) in no way shape or form "complements" a single USAF primary mission... yet it is specifically authorized by the Instruction and is included on the "not inclusive" list.

Yet some here, while trying to discredit my interpretation of the Instruction, pointed out that Marksmanship does in fact "complement" some USAF primary missions.

See the disconnect? See the need for interpretation?

Others here would also try to point out that any Marksmanship Award, regards of which Service awards it, is not a permanent award.

So I ask you, please point me to any Service's regulations which states at what point/time period a Marksmanship Award falls off the the uniform? 6 months? 1 year? 6 years? 60 years? It does not.

It is only replaced when it is superseded by a more current qualification or in the case of a failed qualification, removed. So if you never shoot again, regardless of the reason, you continue to wear your last valid qualification.

So for most CAP members, their last Marksmanship qualification will be listed on their DD-214, making that final qualification a permanent award.

Again I quote for you the Instruction:

Temporary qualification badges and those not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform.

I think the confusion here is the word "temporary". I would submit to you that "Temporary Qualification Badges" are a class of Identification badges, only worn when assigned to specific billets and conducting  specific missions.

Some examples of this would be:
Navy Career Counselor Badge - only worn while assigned to duty as a Command Career Counselor.
Army Military Police Badge - only worn while assigned to a Military Police billet and actually conducting a Law Enforcement mission.
Air Force Fire Protection Badge - only worn when serving in the capacity as an Air Force firefighter.

Also, in the Navy and Coast Guard there a certain badges that require both a skill qualification and a time period assigned to the billet for permanent award. An example of this would be a Coast Guard Cutterman's Badge. Once you complete the skills test requirement, you may where the badge on a temporary basis, once you complete the time requirement (I believe 1 or 2 years Cutter duty billet status) the badge becomes permanent.

These are what the Instruction is referring to... not a Marksmanship badge.

Again, to the actual topic, nothing discussed above would authorize a NRA badge to be worn by a Senior Member on a CAP uniform.