Senior Member can't wear his NRA Marksman award?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Do you mean something like this?



I earned a similar one as a Boy Scout back in the '70s.  I could wear it on the BSA uniform but, even if I could find the darn thing today, the thought of wearing it on the CAP uniform has never crossed my mind.

[arajca]

Uniform regs are not activities.   We are comparing apples and oranges with that analogy.  Senior Members/Adults CAN take the course.   But the NRA badge is not a uniform item that SMs can wear.   Uniform items very much are written approval.  If it doesn't specifically say you can wear it, then you cant assume that you can.  Thats really the issue.  Just because the 39-1 doesn't specifically say "Seniors cannot wear the USMC rifle qual badges" doesn't mean that I can.   It specifically means that I cannot because its not listed.

The uniform manual actually says, and I quote:

1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

emphasis mine

[NIN]

Uniform regs are not activities.   We are comparing apples and oranges with that analogy.  Senior Members/Adults CAN take the course.   But the NRA badge is not a uniform item that SMs can wear.   Uniform items very much are written approval.  If it doesn't specifically say you can wear it, then you cant assume that you can.  Thats really the issue.  Just because the 39-1 doesn't specifically say "Seniors cannot wear the USMC rifle qual badges" doesn't mean that I can.   It specifically means that I cannot because its not listed.

The uniform manual actually says, and I quote:

1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

emphasis mine

Boom! There ya go.

[lordmonar]

If the NRA badge permitted by CAP 39-1 can be earned by cadets and senior members, why do only cadets get to wear it?

The NRA badge cannot be earned by Senior Members - that's the flaw in your premise.

Yes it can.   Just like a senior member can earn his PADI Open Water Diver certification, USPA Jump Wings, Advanced Basket Weaving Rating or his Security + Certification.

No one as yet has found a reason to let Senior Members advertise this fact on their uniforms.

At some point in the past....someone in the CP shop thought that weapons training through the NRA youth shooter's program was a cool add on to CAP's Cadet Program and got authorization to allow the badge to be worn as way to reward/incentive the cadets to do the program.

Time moved on and the NRA changed their program from a youth only to any anyone program.   CAP went through conniptions over it until it got corrected in the last 39-1 (IIRC).   

Now someone is asking the question....."The NRA program is for anyone....why can't seniors wear it?"

Legitimate question.

Write up a white paper....send it up the chain....maybe we will get it....maybe not.

[lordmonar]

Ill chime in..... although I see you arent coming back though... Its a badge for KIDS and you will look ridiculous as an adult walking around with it.   I didnt give it a second thought when I wasn't able to wear my 4th award USMC rifle and pistol expert badges on my CAP uniform.

Sorry...not true.  Anyone can earn the NRA Badges.

[Eclipse]

There is no regulation permitting use of the bathroom, so your logic dictates that such use is prohibited.

Agreed - it requires a CAPF-OINEED2P

Followed in some cases, after the morning SAR briefing and coffee, the CAPF OINEED2BM.

Filling that one out is a mess...

First sortie in the morning is a low-altitude / over-water drop.

[lordmonar]

I don't need one that "authorizes" it.  That which is not prohibited is implicitly permitted.

That's literally the opposite of how it works.

We have been down this road before.....as someone who lived and died by regulations and AFIs and DCDICs for 22 years.....you are 100% absolutely emphatically totally wrong on this assertion.

Regs tell you what MUST be done, what should be done, what should be avoided and what CAN'T done........anything not covered by the regs is up to the discretion of the leader involved.

You asset because 52-16 permits cadets to do weapons training and does not mention adult members at all.......then adult members can't do weapons training.

I will speculate then that you are going to have to do a lot of paper work on a lot of senior members who particpated in weapons training while supervising their cadets in weapons training. 

That which is not forbidden is allowed.

[Eclipse]

If the NRA badge permitted by CAP 39-1 can be earned by cadets and senior members, why do only cadets get to wear it?

The NRA badge cannot be earned by Senior Members - that's the flaw in your premise.

Yes it can.   Just like a senior member can earn his PADI Open Water Diver certification, USPA Jump Wings, Advanced Basket Weaving Rating or his Security + Certification.

Not the same thing - it is against regulations for a senior member to use a firearm during CAP activities.
Ergo, it cannot be earned by senior members, nor is it recognized by CAP for adult members.

Based on the program requirements, it can be earned by private citizens who may also coincidentally be members of CAP.

That's not the same thing.

The above is also admittedly worthy of the Pedantic Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.

[Eclipse]

I will speculate then that you are going to have to do a lot of paper work on a lot of senior members who participated in weapons training while supervising their cadets in weapons training. 

The above is literally forbidden, explicitly, by clear regulations.

A regulation I have broken myself before it was pointed out to me, and one which continues to be broken at
encampments all over the country.

[lordmonar]

That which is not prohibited is implicitly permitted.

Can you cite a regulation that permits you to go to the bathroom during a mission?  By your logic, it must be prohibited then, right?

CAP does not prohibit leading cadets in group discussions about Ulysses, Naked Lunch, Howl, or Tropic of Cancer – four texts that have been banned by various communities over the years. As a former teacher, I'm not going anywhere near those texts below college level.

Just because a regulation doesn't prohibit a given activity does not mean that that activity is permitted in CAP. The bathroom break example is nonsense. Rules and regs can't anticipate every scenario, but neither do they address every scenario that the writer(s) could anticipate (ie: a need for bathroom breaks).

We need more discernment and temperance around here.

No...it is a perfect example of the argument.

Regulations are there to tell you what you CAN'T do and what you MUST do.   They may offer suggestions about what you should do and should not do.

Everything else is up to us as leaders.    Group discussion of Ulysses.....you think you should avoid that....okay that's exactly why we have you there as a leaser...to make those calls.

But to say "if the regs don't mention it, you can't do it" is absolutely wrong.  It would be impossible to write a reg that covered every eventuality.   Because as we say....where is the bathroom reg?   

If it is not in the reg...you can't do it.   If that is the standard.....I know we do a lot of things in CAP no in the regs.

[lordmonar]

Uniform regs are not activities.   We are comparing apples and oranges with that analogy.  Senior Members/Adults CAN take the course.   But the NRA badge is not a uniform item that SMs can wear.   Uniform items very much are written approval.  If it doesn't specifically say you can wear it, then you cant assume that you can.  Thats really the issue.  Just because the 39-1 doesn't specifically say "Seniors cannot wear the USMC rifle qual badges" doesn't mean that I can.   It specifically means that I cannot because its not listed.

Yes....because 39-1 is a manual....and it states at the beginning of it.......anything not covered here needs to be sent to NHQ for evaluation....I'm paraphrasing.

No one has suggested that a Senior Member can wear the badge because 39-1 does not forbid it.

The suggestion was made that if the regs don't specifically allow an activity...then you can't do it.   Now in the case of UNIFORMS the manual does in fact say that....If it is not here....you can't do it....ask NHQ....(such as an obscure military badge or a foreign award).

But in 52-16 it does not say I can take my cadets to the movies.   So....can I?   Is if verboten to take my cadets to the movies as a squadron activity?   It's not in there. 

[lordmonar]

If the NRA badge permitted by CAP 39-1 can be earned by cadets and senior members, why do only cadets get to wear it?

The NRA badge cannot be earned by Senior Members - that's the flaw in your premise.

Yes it can.   Just like a senior member can earn his PADI Open Water Diver certification, USPA Jump Wings, Advanced Basket Weaving Rating or his Security + Certification.

Not the same thing - it is against regulations for a senior member to use a firearm during CAP activities.
Ergo, it cannot be earned by senior members, nor is it recognized by CAP for adult members.

Based on the program requirements, it can be earned by private citizens who may also coincidentally be members of CAP.

That's not the same thing.

The above is also admittedly worthy of the Pedantic Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.

Is the same thing....because a cadet can earn the NRA badge........and it not be part of a CAP activity.    It says If he earns it......not if he earns it at a CAP activity.    A senior member can earn his CAP Solo Wings....and he is forbidden by regs to actually do that on CAP time....but he can still earn them.     So.....a Senior Member can in fact earn NRA badges....just not at a CAP activity.   39-1 does not allow him to wear them.

[lordmonar]

I will speculate then that you are going to have to do a lot of paper work on a lot of senior members who participated in weapons training while supervising their cadets in weapons training. 

The above is literally forbidden, explicitly, by clear regulations.

A regulation I have broken myself before it was pointed out to me, and one which continues to be broken at
encampments all over the country.

900-3 needs to be rewritten.....or maybe clarified because under 52-16 SM could in fact be the ones providing the training to the cadets.....and under the circumstances......the spirit of 900-3 is not being broken if we are allowing the CP senior members to participate too. 

Definitely one of those areas that needs to be corrected. As we unknowing break that reg all the time. 

[Ned]

You asset because 52-16 permits cadets to do weapons training and does not mention adult members at all.......then adult members can't do weapons training.

I will speculate then that you are going to have to do a lot of paper work on a lot of senior members who particpated in weapons training while supervising their cadets in weapons training. 

I love a good legal debate as much as anyone, but in this narrow area ("participation" in firearms training by seniors supervising cadets) I think you guys are getting caught up in some ambuiguity about what "participation" means.

It sounds like we agree that the two primary regs at issue here are the 900-3 (aptly named Firearms and Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials clearly permits "Carrying" and use of firearms "under strict supervision as authorized in CAPR 52-16." (Para 1a(3))

And the 52-16 says

Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

If by "participating in firearms training" while supervising cadets means sitting down in an open lane and banging away, then Bob is correct.  Seniors are not authorized to be students in firearms training.  (Or shoot for familiarization, or whatever.) 

But if "participation in firearms training" means supervising the cadets who are receiving the training, then Patrick is certainly correct.  The 900-3 requires "strict supervision" and the 52-16 also requires that the firearms training be supervised by qualified military, law enforcement, NRA, etc. personnel.

But don't forget CAPR 52-10 that requires that every cadet activity be supervised by at least two qualified senior members (para 2-3(d)), even if the cadets are also being supervised by non-CAP members like military, law enforcement, etc..


So, seniors have to "participate" in the firearms training as (non-firing) supervisors.  There is certainly nothing wrong with employing seniors as additional safety officers, or even as firearms instructors for cadets as long as the training is also supervised by qualified military, law enforcement, NRA, etc personnel who are responsible for the overall training.

Sorry for the slight off topic diversion.  You may all go back to arguing about what badges we can or cannot wear on our uniforms.

Because that is important stuff.   

[Eclipse]

I certainly agree.

Seniors must be there, buy may not shoot.

Nor could you arrange a "seniors only" day on the range.

Also, if you're a senior member who happens to be an NRA instructor, you're wearing >that< hat while you're teaching,
just as you're wearing the ARC's (or whoever) if you teach first aid.

[Eclipse]

So.....a Senior Member can in fact earn NRA badges....just not at a CAP activity.   39-1 does not allow him to wear them.

If it can't be worn on the uniform, and can't be earned in the uniform, it can't be earned as a member.

What you do in your backyard is irrelevant to what you can do as a member.

[lordmonar]

So.....a Senior Member can in fact earn NRA badges....just not at a CAP activity.   39-1 does not allow him to wear them.

If it can't be worn on the uniform, and can't be earned in the uniform, it can't be earned as a member.

What you do in your backyard is irrelevant to what you can do as a member.

CPP? 

[Eclipse]

So.....a Senior Member can in fact earn NRA badges....just not at a CAP activity.   39-1 does not allow him to wear them.

If it can't be worn on the uniform, and can't be earned in the uniform, it can't be earned as a member.

What you do in your backyard is irrelevant to what you can do as a member.

CPP? 

Touché

[Garibaldi]

So.....a Senior Member can in fact earn NRA badges....just not at a CAP activity.   39-1 does not allow him to wear them.

If it can't be worn on the uniform, and can't be earned in the uniform, it can't be earned as a member.

What you do in your backyard is irrelevant to what you can do as a member.

Case in point. I rappelled nearly all my teen-aged years with CAP. Since they changed the rules, sometime after I left the cadet program in 1986, only approved DOD instructors could teach it as a High Adventure activity. It may still be that way, haven't checked, TL&DR the manual.

Even if I had my licensure, or whatever, to teach commercially, I couldn't teach CAP members, while in uniform, as part of a normal FTX.

[Luis R. Ramos]

First sortie in the morning is a low-altitude / over-water drop.

Isn't there a prohibition against throwing something from airplanes...?

Or flying lower than 1000?

I don't know, I am not a pilot... But remember I had to read those flight operations manuals...