Member's own personnel file

[lordmonar]

The only real reason to maintain a Personnel File anymore is because the Regulation requires it.  Also where would you keep all of the required supporting documentation that we are required to maintain locally... Membership Applications, CAPF 2A's etc..

Agreed - but the only reason we're keeping that stuff is "because we're keeping that stuff".

These days very little is done on actual paper, even the approvals.  I have gobs of initiated 2's and 2a's,
and very few ultimately approved with a signature.

I absolutely agree.  I'm Master Rated Personnel Track and can only think of a few examples.  I challenge stuff all the time.  Are we reporting just for the sake of reporting?  Why can't there be a better way.   The only reason is compliance with outdated regulations. (although recently rereleased)

I think we are on the same page.....there is still a lot of stuff not tracked by E-services yet.   Conference attendance, decoration, ES participation.   So there are a lot of good reasons to continue to maintain the records........but we (CAP) should be moving to E-services as fast as we can.

[Eclipse]

Yep.

[SARDOC]

"Prospective" members aren't "members", "Patron" members are, different circumstance, different rules.

The reg says "no activities" I don't know how much clearer it needs to be.

I'll concede some chicken and egg considering that to come out of patron after what 90 days?  You need to do
a fingerprint card again and background check again, so there's that.

The intention is clearly to keep the "general" patron from just wandering in and out of activities without being welcome,
I could see where a had-line could be an issue for someone coming back, though it's not impossible to manage.

Just as long as you stay consistent.  I would hope that you would evict a State Legislative Member from your meeting who showed without an invitation as well.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility in my meeting location because of where we meet.  Just had the Governor come by last Friday.

[mynetdude]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  That's not my interpretation of it.  General Public is requested to attend three meetings prior to even deciding on becoming an active member, but we can't do that even if a Patron Member has never been an Active Member?  There is no requirement for an Patron Member to have ever been an Active Member but somehow we expect them to demonstrate that they meet the requirements for Active membership by providing I-9 Documents and a Fingerprint card without ever coming to a meeting.  We appreciate the financial support of our Organization, but you can't come to any activity even as an observer and not a participant to see how we might use that money.

You may have had a member join as an Active Member but due to personal circumstances have to become Reserve/Patron prior to completing training requirements but you can't come to a meeting to find out how to become active again.  I think this doesn't jive with the Mentorship program

I don't believe that is the intent in which this regulation is written.  I see this an insurance requirement, don't come participate and get hurt because you aren't covered by insurance...but neither are General Public Prospective members.  They Should be able to come and observe but not "participate".  I don't allow prospective members to "participate".  I also don't question everybody and check ID's coming into the Door for Membership Status.  I don't know some of the Patron members of my Squadron, wouldn't know them if they came through the door. 

I invite them to events...never getting a reply, they were patrons long before my affiliation with the Squadron.   "Hi, I'm Joe Smith, Patron Member...I want to become active again"  "I'm sorry Mr. Smith, you are prohibited by Civil Air Patrol Regulations from even being here"  I'm not sure that would go over well.  Again, not what I believe is the spirit of the rule.

"Prospective" members aren't "members", "Patron" members are, different circumstance, different rules.

The reg says "no activities" I don't know how much clearer it needs to be.

I'll concede some chicken and egg considering that to come out of patron after what 90 days?  You need to do
a fingerprint card again and background check again, so there's that.

The intention is clearly to keep the "general" patron from just wandering in and out of activities without being welcome,
I could see where a had-line could be an issue for someone coming back, though it's not impossible to manage.

wait.. a background+fingerprint is required after 90 days of not being active while in reserve/patron status? I thought it was 6 months after membership lapse so if your membership hasn't lapsed but you ARE a patron with a current membership you shouldn't need a background+fingerprint check.  If so, where does it say that?

[SARDOC]

The fingerprint card would need to be resubmitted after 180 days according to CAPR 39-2.  That's if you go by the Regulation

CAP Knowledgebase says "Reserve/patrons transferring to active status who have not previously completed the FBI screening procedures must include a FD Form 258 with the CAPF 2A."

Which would lead me to believe that since they've maintained continuous membership although in a Patron Status that the Fingerprint card may not be required at all of they've already done so.  Although that isn't consistent with the regulation which is a huge mental hurdle for some people to think that the Knowledgebase frequently puts out vague, misleading or just plain out right wrong information...since it's contradicted by the Actual Letter of the regulation. 

That being said.  I had a Military Reservist accept Active Duty Orders to Afghanistan and was gone about a year and four months.  He went patron on deployment to meet the intent and not have to worry about his Monthly Safety requirement among other things.  16 Months later, I sent a CAPF 2a electronic to NHQ returning him to Senior Membership.  No Fingerprint Card, not even a note that said he was deployed on active duty (suspend membership dues, etc).  He's on my Active List today.

[Lord of the North]

Just a couple of points here.  CAPR 39-2 para 1-11d(2) states "When a member transfers, the transferring member will be responsible for ensuring his or her records are delivered to the gaining unit."  The regulation now not specify hand carry like it did in the past.

CAPR 39-2 para 3-1b(3)(b) states "Members desiring to transfer back to active status will use the same procedure above; however, if not previously validated Commanders must also validate the individual's proof of identity and annotate the Form 2a accordingly. Acceptable documents for proof of identity are the same documents required on the Form I-9 for employment eligibility verification. See attachment 2 for a list of these documents. NOTE: Reserve/patrons transferring to active status who have not previously completed the FBI screening procedures must include a FD Form 258 with the CAPF 2A."
That's clear to me that if the Patron member has previously completed fingerprinting and had his proof of identity verified by the commander he does not need to resubmit fingerprint cards.

[mynetdude]

I have never been put on patron/reserve status before, so I assume I only need to show proof of identity with one of the methods in 39-2 Para 3

[SARDOC]

I have never been put on patron/reserve status before, so I assume I only need to show proof of identity with one of the methods in 39-2 Para 3

As well as a Fingerprint Card if you are out over 180 days depending on how some read the regulation.

[Eclipse]

I have never been put on patron/reserve status before, so I assume I only need to show proof of identity with one of the methods in 39-2 Para 3

Are you going to 000 and intending to stay there or are you just looking for another unit because you're not
getting along with the current CC?

If it's the latter, don't go patron/000 just fine the new unit. It's either for everyone involved.

[mynetdude]

I have never been put on patron/reserve status before, so I assume I only need to show proof of identity with one of the methods in 39-2 Para 3

Are you going to 000 and intending to stay there or are you just looking for another unit because you're not
getting along with the current CC?

If it's the latter, don't go patron/000 just fine the new unit. It's either for everyone involved.

I had no intention of going 000 in the first place, but if things get resolved I would like to return to my previous unit. Next nearest unit is 30 miles away and significantly larger, no other units in the state small enough which is what I prefer.

I most likely will not return to CAP if the problem isn't resolved by the time my membership expires (in 4 months).