Member's own personnel file

[mynetdude]

Since by regulation the squadron is required to retain their file; now I can't seem to find the personnel regulations to look up these details however I remember somewhere where it explains how long and when to destroy or allow a member to transfer their personnel file.  I also have been hearing that somehow you're allowed to remove your personnel file with a note in a new folder that you have retained your personnel file and that note has your signature, etc...

Also I have also been transferred to another "squadron" (we're calling it the ghost squadron) in theory I assume that my file is supposed to go to wing?) If someone could point me to where I can look up what I can and can't do with my own personnel file or what I must do upon being transferred to the ghost squadron?

[Garibaldi]

Since by regulation the squadron is required to retain their file; now I can't seem to find the personnel regulations to look up these details however I remember somewhere where it explains how long and when to destroy or allow a member to transfer their personnel file.  I also have been hearing that somehow you're allowed to remove your personnel file with a note in a new folder that you have retained your personnel file and that note has your signature, etc...

Also I have also been transferred to another "squadron" (we're calling it the ghost squadron) in theory I assume that my file is supposed to go to wing?) If someone could point me to where I can look up what I can and can't do with my own personnel file or what I must do upon being transferred to the ghost squadron?

"Your" file is nothing of the sort. It is a file that CAP keeps on you. You can ask for a copy of everything in the file, but the original is retained by the unit, or wing when applicable. The unit or wing admin/personnel officer can put things in, but taking things out? Act of God.

[Alaric]

Since by regulation the squadron is required to retain their file; now I can't seem to find the personnel regulations to look up these details however I remember somewhere where it explains how long and when to destroy or allow a member to transfer their personnel file.  I also have been hearing that somehow you're allowed to remove your personnel file with a note in a new folder that you have retained your personnel file and that note has your signature, etc...

Also I have also been transferred to another "squadron" (we're calling it the ghost squadron) in theory I assume that my file is supposed to go to wing?) If someone could point me to where I can look up what I can and can't do with my own personnel file or what I must do upon being transferred to the ghost squadron?

"Your" file is nothing of the sort. It is a file that CAP keeps on you. You can ask for a copy of everything in the file, but the original is retained by the unit, or wing when applicable. The unit or wing admin/personnel officer can put things in, but taking things out? Act of God.

The information you seek can be found in 39-2

[Eclipse]

39-2 Is your guide.

In a nutshell, when you transfer you are responsible for moving your files to the new unit, old unit should
retain a copy.  It's not uncommon for one unit CC to send them direct to the new unit.  In the case of 000
it's very common.

You're entitled to a copy of your records, but the authoritative copy stays with the unit.

The last unit of record is required to retain the files for 5 years after a member is terminated from CAP membership.

FYI - in most (all?) wings, members in 000 are placed in patron status and cannot participate in any activities
until they find a new unit.  The 000 squadrons have no commanders, therefore no one to approve participation in
any activities, nor other routine administrative functions.

[mynetdude]

39-2 Is your guide.

In a nutshell, when you transfer you are responsible for moving your files to the new unit, old unit should
retain a copy.  It's not uncommon for one unit CC to send them direct to the new unit.  In the case of 000
it's very common.

You're entitled to a copy of your records, but the authoritative copy stays with the unit.

The last unit of record is required to retain the files for 5 years after a member is terminated from CAP membership.

FYI - in most (all?) wings, members in 000 are placed in patron status and cannot participate in any activities
until they find a new unit.  The 000 squadrons have no commanders, therefore no one to approve participation in
any activities, nor other routine administrative functions.

wasn't sure about the patron status since you can't get patron membership rather than having to pay the full amount for senior member; so good to know and thanks.  That being said I assume I can't go to any squadron meetings unless it is for the intent to transfer correct?

[Eclipse]

wasn't sure about the patron status since you can't get patron membership rather than having to pay the full amount for senior member; so good to know and thanks.  That being said I assume I can't go to any squadron meetings unless it is for the intent to transfer correct?

Not even for that, unless you're invited in advance.

[SARDOC]

Also Check CAPR 10-2.  it might help with the retention question.

The last unit of record is required to retain the files for 5 years after a member is terminated from CAP membership.

Just a Technicality.  I only need to maintain the member record for Five Years after the membership expires, terminates or Transfers.

I don't have to maintain a record for a member that transferred to Michigan 25 years ago because they have maintained their CAP membership.  Just an example.

[Eclipse]

If they transfer you don't need to maintain a copy at all, the retention requirement
is for +5 after the last unit of record.

The "make a copy" is a "should", not a will.

[lordmonar]

If they transfer you don't need to maintain a copy at all, the retention requirement
is for +5 after the last unit of record.

The "make a copy" is a "should", not a will.

Member X leaves your unit and transfers......back in the day...the only way you knew that happened when he fell off your membership roster.

If you did not get a letter from someone saying "please send me his records" you move them to the inactive file and retained for 5 years.

That language has not changed.  If the member has not asked to hand carry his records and no one asks for them....it is not the personnel officer's job to hunt him down.

[Eclipse]

If you did not get a letter from someone saying "please send me his records" you move them to the inactive file and retained for 5 years.

That language has not changed.  If the member has not asked to hand carry his records and no one asks for them....it is not the personnel officer's job to hunt him down.

Why would you retain the records of someone you know has been transferred?

The right way to do it is to hand the member his file and say "good luck", I personally prefer handing them
to the staff of the receiving unit with some sort of acknowledgement, but I'm sure not going to hang onto
records from someone I know isn't my responsibility anymore.

These days it should just be an email of a large .PDF anyway.  KILL THE PAPER!

Frankly, there's so little that actually needs to be in a member's folder these days, even pilots, you have to wonder
how long until NHQ builds an online 45 and we trash the local file cabinets.  When I took over my first
unit, there were personnel files that were inches thick - mostly CAP-irrelevant information accomplishments
no one but the member cared about.  Those were returned with the polite explanation that
"CAP didn't care that you have chaired the FBO's holiday luncheon for 20 years straight..." etc.

[lordmonar]

Like I said....if the member did not pre coordinate his transfer......of if you said "send us the address of your new unit when you get there"....but that never happened.   There you are....you got the records but what to do with them?   You transfer them to inactive and hold for 5 years.

Yes...kill the paper.

Today....EVERYTHING that you would want to or need to keep in your personnel file should be in E-Services.

Kill the paper.

[SARDOC]

wasn't sure about the patron status since you can't get patron membership rather than having to pay the full amount for senior member; so good to know and thanks.  That being said I assume I can't go to any squadron meetings unless it is for the intent to transfer correct?

Not even for that, unless you're invited in advance.

I don't find  it that clear in the Regulation.  They can't attend CAP Activities (which I believe would include regular meetings) but they can attend Wing, Region, National Conferences and even use CAP Corporate Ground Transportation. 

I would think that the Spirit of the rule is that they could attend the meeting especially considering that

Members may attend any unit meeting for the purpose of completing the monthly safety education requirement;

and that could be construed as a meeting the requirement set forth in

Reserve/patron members may: (snipped for brevity) h. Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications.

You'd think these regulations were written by a bunch of Lawyers 

[mynetdude]

If you did not get a letter from someone saying "please send me his records" you move them to the inactive file and retained for 5 years.

That language has not changed.  If the member has not asked to hand carry his records and no one asks for them....it is not the personnel officer's job to hunt him down.

Why would you retain the records of someone you know has been transferred?

The right way to do it is to hand the member his file and say "good luck", I personally prefer handing them
to the staff of the receiving unit with some sort of acknowledgement, but I'm sure not going to hang onto
records from someone I know isn't my responsibility anymore.

These days it should just be an email of a large .PDF anyway.  KILL THE PAPER!

Frankly, there's so little that actually needs to be in a member's folder these days, even pilots, you have to wonder
how long until NHQ builds an online 45 and we trash the local file cabinets.  When I took over my first
unit, there were personnel files that were inches thick - mostly CAP-irrelevant information accomplishments
no one but the member cared about.  Those were returned with the polite explanation that
"CAP didn't care that you have chaired the FBO's holiday luncheon for 20 years straight..." etc.

That is a good way to lose files if there isn't enough redundancy

[Eclipse]

That is a good way to lose files if there isn't enough redundancy

As Lord says, there's actually nothing in the files anyone needs.  It's all just a waste of time to
be keeping that stuff lying around.

Once you're a member, anything of consequence is processed and tracked in eServices.  Yes, people
from Ye Olde' Squadron with prolonged absences from CAP have had issues in the past, however
in a lot of those cases, when you look into things, you find the whole of their record keeping was
hap-hazard.  I've even had a few where someone purported to be one grade, and it turns out they
were pinned and never promoted.

It would be nice if all decs and awards were tracked, even in a flat file somewhere.

[Eclipse]

wasn't sure about the patron status since you can't get patron membership rather than having to pay the full amount for senior member; so good to know and thanks.  That being said I assume I can't go to any squadron meetings unless it is for the intent to transfer correct?

Not even for that, unless you're invited in advance.

I don't find  it that clear in the Regulation.  They can't attend CAP Activities (which I believe would include regular meetings) but they can attend Wing, Region, National Conferences and even use CAP Corporate Ground Transportation. 

I would think that the Spirit of the rule is that they could attend the meeting especially considering that

Members may attend any unit meeting for the purpose of completing the monthly safety education requirement;

and that could be construed as a meeting the requirement set forth in

Reserve/patron members may: (snipped for brevity) h. Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications.

You'd think these regulations were written by a bunch of Lawyers 

b. Reserve/Patron Member. A reserve/patron member is a financial supporter who
maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a
limited capacity as outlined below. Such members may be assigned to a local unit or at the National
level.
(1) Reserve/patron members may:
(a) Receive a specially annotated membership card.
(b) Receive the Volunteer magazine.
(c) Receive discounts associated with senior membership (car rental, etc.).
(d) Retain the last grade held prior to entering reserve/patron status.
(e) Attend wing and region conferences and the CAP Annual Conference sponsored
by National Headquarters.
(f) Attend special unit social events upon invitation by the commander concerned,
such as anniversary celebrations, awards banquets, holiday parties, etc.
(g) Use Civil Air Patrol ground transportation, but use of Civil Air Patrol air
transportation is prohibited.
(h) Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications.
(See paragraph 3 below.)
(2) Reserve/patron members may not:
(a) Wear the CAP uniform.
(b) Ride in or fly CAP aircraft. (This includes member-owned aircraft on CAP
flight activity as defined in CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management.)
(c) Participate in CAP activities in any capacity except to attend specified
conferences and social events as outlined in paragraphs 3-1b(1)e and f above.
(d) Be promoted while in reserve/patron status

Ergo -
Holiday party, yes, if invited.  Unit meetings, no, invited or otherwise.

You come out of Patron and then attend a meeting to re-up currency, not the other way around.

[SARDOC]

The only real reason to maintain a Personnel File anymore is because the Regulation requires it.  Also where would you keep all of the required supporting documentation that we are required to maintain locally... Membership Applications, CAPF 2A's etc..

I think we are moving in the right direction in moving more and more things to eServices, but as we all know eServices doesn't do everything that we are required to do redundantly.

[Eclipse]

The only real reason to maintain a Personnel File anymore is because the Regulation requires it.  Also where would you keep all of the required supporting documentation that we are required to maintain locally... Membership Applications, CAPF 2A's etc..

Agreed - but the only reason we're keeping that stuff is "because we're keeping that stuff".

These days very little is done on actual paper, even the approvals.  I have gobs of initiated 2's and 2a's,
and very few ultimately approved with a signature.

[SARDOC]

wasn't sure about the patron status since you can't get patron membership rather than having to pay the full amount for senior member; so good to know and thanks.  That being said I assume I can't go to any squadron meetings unless it is for the intent to transfer correct?

Not even for that, unless you're invited in advance.

I don't find  it that clear in the Regulation.  They can't attend CAP Activities (which I believe would include regular meetings) but they can attend Wing, Region, National Conferences and even use CAP Corporate Ground Transportation. 

I would think that the Spirit of the rule is that they could attend the meeting especially considering that

Members may attend any unit meeting for the purpose of completing the monthly safety education requirement;

and that could be construed as a meeting the requirement set forth in

Reserve/patron members may: (snipped for brevity) h. Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications.

You'd think these regulations were written by a bunch of Lawyers 

b. Reserve/Patron Member. A reserve/patron member is a financial supporter who
maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a
limited capacity as outlined below. Such members may be assigned to a local unit or at the National
level.
(1) Reserve/patron members may:
(a) Receive a specially annotated membership card.
(b) Receive the Volunteer magazine.
(c) Receive discounts associated with senior membership (car rental, etc.).
(d) Retain the last grade held prior to entering reserve/patron status.
(e) Attend wing and region conferences and the CAP Annual Conference sponsored
by National Headquarters.
(f) Attend special unit social events upon invitation by the commander concerned,
such as anniversary celebrations, awards banquets, holiday parties, etc.
(g) Use Civil Air Patrol ground transportation, but use of Civil Air Patrol air
transportation is prohibited.
(h) Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications.
(See paragraph 3 below.)
(2) Reserve/patron members may not:
(a) Wear the CAP uniform.
(b) Ride in or fly CAP aircraft. (This includes member-owned aircraft on CAP
flight activity as defined in CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management.)
(c) Participate in CAP activities in any capacity except to attend specified
conferences and social events as outlined in paragraphs 3-1b(1)e and f above.
(d) Be promoted while in reserve/patron status

Ergo -
Holiday party, yes, if invited.  Unit meetings, no, invited or otherwise.

You come out of Patron and then attend a meeting to re-up currency, not the other way around.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  That's not my interpretation of it.  General Public is requested to attend three meetings prior to even deciding on becoming an active member, but we can't do that even if a Patron Member has never been an Active Member?  There is no requirement for an Patron Member to have ever been an Active Member but somehow we expect them to demonstrate that they meet the requirements for Active membership by providing I-9 Documents and a Fingerprint card without ever coming to a meeting.  We appreciate the financial support of our Organization, but you can't come to any activity even as an observer and not a participant to see how we might use that money.

You may have had a member join as an Active Member but due to personal circumstances have to become Reserve/Patron prior to completing training requirements but you can't come to a meeting to find out how to become active again.  I think this doesn't jive with the Mentorship program

I don't believe that is the intent in which this regulation is written.  I see this an insurance requirement, don't come participate and get hurt because you aren't covered by insurance...but neither are General Public Prospective members.  They Should be able to come and observe but not "participate".  I don't allow prospective members to "participate".  I also don't question everybody and check ID's coming into the Door for Membership Status.  I don't know some of the Patron members of my Squadron, wouldn't know them if they came through the door. 

I invite them to events...never getting a reply, they were patrons long before my affiliation with the Squadron.   "Hi, I'm Joe Smith, Patron Member...I want to become active again"  "I'm sorry Mr. Smith, you are prohibited by Civil Air Patrol Regulations from even being here"  I'm not sure that would go over well.  Again, not what I believe is the spirit of the rule. 

[SARDOC]

The only real reason to maintain a Personnel File anymore is because the Regulation requires it.  Also where would you keep all of the required supporting documentation that we are required to maintain locally... Membership Applications, CAPF 2A's etc..

Agreed - but the only reason we're keeping that stuff is "because we're keeping that stuff".

These days very little is done on actual paper, even the approvals.  I have gobs of initiated 2's and 2a's,
and very few ultimately approved with a signature.

I absolutely agree.  I'm Master Rated Personnel Track and can only think of a few examples.  I challenge stuff all the time.  Are we reporting just for the sake of reporting?  Why can't there be a better way.   The only reason is compliance with outdated regulations. (although recently rereleased)

[Eclipse]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  That's not my interpretation of it.  General Public is requested to attend three meetings prior to even deciding on becoming an active member, but we can't do that even if a Patron Member has never been an Active Member?  There is no requirement for an Patron Member to have ever been an Active Member but somehow we expect them to demonstrate that they meet the requirements for Active membership by providing I-9 Documents and a Fingerprint card without ever coming to a meeting.  We appreciate the financial support of our Organization, but you can't come to any activity even as an observer and not a participant to see how we might use that money.

You may have had a member join as an Active Member but due to personal circumstances have to become Reserve/Patron prior to completing training requirements but you can't come to a meeting to find out how to become active again.  I think this doesn't jive with the Mentorship program

I don't believe that is the intent in which this regulation is written.  I see this an insurance requirement, don't come participate and get hurt because you aren't covered by insurance...but neither are General Public Prospective members.  They Should be able to come and observe but not "participate".  I don't allow prospective members to "participate".  I also don't question everybody and check ID's coming into the Door for Membership Status.  I don't know some of the Patron members of my Squadron, wouldn't know them if they came through the door. 

I invite them to events...never getting a reply, they were patrons long before my affiliation with the Squadron.   "Hi, I'm Joe Smith, Patron Member...I want to become active again"  "I'm sorry Mr. Smith, you are prohibited by Civil Air Patrol Regulations from even being here"  I'm not sure that would go over well.  Again, not what I believe is the spirit of the rule.

"Prospective" members aren't "members", "Patron" members are, different circumstance, different rules.

The reg says "no activities" I don't know how much clearer it needs to be.

I'll concede some chicken and egg considering that to come out of patron after what 90 days?  You need to do
a fingerprint card again and background check again, so there's that.

The intention is clearly to keep the "general" patron from just wandering in and out of activities without being welcome,
I could see where a had-line could be an issue for someone coming back, though it's not impossible to manage.