CAPF 5 in WMIRS with Non-CAP Examiner

[Huey Driver]

Greetings all,

I'm taking my PPL examination and CAPF 5 in a CAP aircraft this Wednesday, with a non-CAP FAA examiner (previously a member though). After speaking with my wing's operations department, we've decided that a C7 mission would be most appropriate. However, WMIRS won't let me enter a non-CAP examiner as my right seat passenger on that sortie. This seems to contradict CAPR 60-1.

Can anyone offer me advice or send me in a better direction? One possible solution would be utilizing a C16 mission, but again, it won't let me enter a non-CAP examiner. Perhaps I should do a C16 - "Other" or "Training/Evaluation".

Also, CAPR 60-1 para 2-3 states that FAA examiners are approved passengers, but from the following paragraph, it seems like NHQ/DO approval is required though NOC. When selecting "Non-CAP Observer" in my right seat, it prompts me to contact NOC. So it seems that I will be contacting NOC. On another note, the "Required Information for Non-CAP Passenger Requests" memorandum doesn't seem applicable in this case.
Confusion resolved, so it seems.


Thank you in advance for any help or advice!

[lordmonar]

You got to get wing's permission to allow a non-CAP member to fly.

Call your wing DO.

[Eclipse]

Don't all non-CAP PAX have to be approved by CAP-USAF, examiner or no?

[Eclipse]

I don't see how this can be done in a single sortie.

I would think the PPL check ride would be a C16, and then the F5 would be a C7 not to mention
don't you need the PPL to qualify for a F5?

[lordmonar]

All Non-CAP personnel must be approved in writing 5 day prior.....by the NOC through CAP/DO for C missions.  And approval by CAP-USAF for A and B training missions.  Or the approval authority for other AFAM missions.  (60-1 para 2-3.a.)

Non SAR/DR pilots must receive wing, regional and national commander approval to get flight instruction in a CAP aircraft (60-1 para 2-8.c.2.)

I'm with Eclipse on this one....I don't know if you can do what you are trying to do.

[Eclipse]

Non SAR/DR pilots must receive wing, regional and national commander approval to get flight instruction in a CAP aircraft (60-1 para 2-8.c.2.)

And to get that approval you have to live more then two hours from a commercial facility.

At first I thought I was missing something in regards to cadet status making a difference, but I don't see that.

[Huey Driver]

You got to get wing's permission to allow a non-CAP member to fly.

Call your wing DO.

I do already have the DO's permission, but could you cite please for my own reference?

All Non-CAP personnel must be approved in writing 5 day prior.....by the NOC through CAP/DO for C missions.  (60-1 para 2-3.a.)

Non SAR/DR pilots must receive wing, regional and national commander approval to get flight instruction in a CAP aircraft (60-1 para 2-8.c.2.)

According to CAPR 60-1, NHQ/DO through NOC seems to be the proper channel. That, and paragraph 3 of the "Required Information for Non-CAP Passenger Requests" memorandum, lead me to believe that this approval doesn't involve CAP-USAF. This is simply a Corporate Mission being flown with an already authorized passenger (by CAPR 60-1 par 2-3). Oh, I'm not forgetting about the Form 9 either, BTW.

Non SAR/DR pilots must receive wing, regional and national commander approval to get flight instruction in a CAP aircraft (60-1 para 2-8.c.2.)

And to get that approval you have to live more then two hours from a commercial facility.

At first I thought I was missing something in regards to cadet status making a difference, but I don't see that.

CAPR 60-1 para 2-8.a is what you're looking for.

I don't see how this can be done in a single sortie.

I would think the PPL check ride would be a C16, and then the F5 would be a C7 not to mention
don't you need the PPL to qualify for a F5?

Nothing in CAPR 60-1 para 3-2 leads to believe that I can't knock out my checkride and CAPF5 in one flight and it hasn't raised any red flags or lead anyone to squeal in my wing. Although unorthodox, I believe it is possible. We'll see what NOC has to say.

[JeffDG]

Non SAR/DR pilots must receive wing, regional and national commander approval to get flight instruction in a CAP aircraft (60-1 para 2-8.c.2.)

That only applies to Senior members.  The OP is a C/Maj, so I presume a Cadet member, and as such may receive flight instruction in a CAP aircraft.

In terms of non-CAP passenger, CAPR 60-1, 2-3 says:

2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose
category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2,
Civil Air Patrol Membership, CAP employees, ROTC/JROTC cadets (ROTC/JROTC flight
orientation program only), International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE) orientation flight cadets and
escorts, CAP-USAF personnel conducting official business, FAA Inspectors, or FAA designated
pilot examiners during flight evaluations.

The requirement for NOC approval comes in the sub-paragraph to that:

Passengers or crew not mentioned in paragraph 2-3 can be authorized when essential to
the mission and must be approved by the mission approval authority prior to flying (5 working
days notice requested for passenger approvals on training missions).

As FAA DPEs are mentioned in 2-3, that requirement is not applicable.

I would suggest contacting your Wing/DO and working through him.  This is not that you need his approval for it, but he can work the WMIRS issues more effectively, or at least know who can.

Congrats on your impending checkride.

[JeffDG]

At first I thought I was missing something in regards to cadet status making a difference, but I don't see that.

CAPR 60-1, 2-8a

2-8. Pilot Training.

a. CAP cadets and qualified SAR/DR mission pilots are authorized to use CAP airplanes
for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating

[JeffDG]

Don't all non-CAP PAX have to be approved by CAP-USAF, examiner or no?

No, DPEs are pre-approved in 60-1.  Citation a couple above.

[JeffDG]

I don't see how this can be done in a single sortie.

I would think the PPL check ride would be a C16, and then the F5 would be a C7 not to mention
don't you need the PPL to qualify for a F5?

DPEs are authorized to sign off on F5s, at least those that they are familiar with.  Not expecting a DPE to do the CAPR 60-1 knowledge stuff, but that can be done orally by a CAP Check Pilot.

ref CAPR 60-1 3-2

a. A CAPF 5 flight check may be administered by a CAP check pilot, or it may be
administered by a FAA inspector, FAA designated check airman, FAA designated pilot
examiner, or CAP-USAF flight examiner provided the individual administering the flight
evaluation completes and signs the CAPF 5 and the CAP specific items are verbally covered by a
CAP check pilot who also signs the CAPF 5.

[Huey Driver]

Yep, I'll be working with a CAP Check Pilot to do the Form 5 ground/paperwork items with me.

Thanks for the help, JeffDG! Your posts were exactly the words I was hoping to hear 

[Eclipse]

I was talking to a LRADO today, and discussed this, because frankly it sounds like a question on
an Ops Officer Master rating exam.

He was saying that this should really be two sorties, a C16 and a C7, since you're not supposed to
double-dip mission symbols or numbers, and you're supposed to have the PPL completed in order to
be eligible for the F5.

Ultimately it'll be up to whoever does the release(s), but don't cut corners for expedience - at least ask the
question.  You don't want your first CAP flight to be your last (for awhile).

He also agreed with me that at the least it is an interesting situation where a cadet can do something
without any special approvals that it would take the National CC to approve for an adult.

[Huey Driver]

I was talking to a LRADO today, and discussed this, because frankly it sounds like a question on
an Ops Officer Master rating exam.

He was saying that this should really be two sorties, a C16 and a C7, since you're not supposed to
double-dip mission symbols or numbers, and you're supposed to have the PPL completed in order to
be eligible for the F5.

Ultimately it'll be up to whoever does the release(s), but don't cut corners for expedience - at least ask the
question.  You don't want your first CAP flight to be your last (for awhile).

He also agreed with me that at the least it is an interesting situation where a cadet can do something
without any special approvals that it would take the National CC to approve for an adult.

Yeah, I spoke with my wing DO again and decided that it would be more appropriate to use C16s to and from the examination, and a C7 for the test itself. But WMIRS still wouldn't let me enter a non-CAP examiner for the C7 CAPF 5 exam.

None of that matters though, because WMIRS turned my sorties into C12s anyway. They're now C12 "Relocation of CAP Members or Property" to and from the airport where I'm taking my examination, and C12 "Aircrew Proficiency" for my PPL and CAPF 5. It is not giving me any other options! 

I'm talking with my Wing/CC next, who's a long-time DO, and we'll see if we can come up with a better fix or alternate solution.

*Apparently a lot of A missions are doing the same thing, turning into A12s.

[JeffDG]

Yeah, seen that since all the new Mission Symbols...put things in as a "C8" for a meeting and it suddenly becomes a C12 when the sortie comes up...

I think all the people are working on WMIRS 2.0