Correct T Shirt for Wear with BDU

[Mitchell 1969]

Does anyone know the why behind prohibiting pockets on black t-shirts? I've never understood why it is an issue.

What are you going to put in there, anyway?

Your pocket protector and slide-in glass case?

Absolutely nothing. Did you even read the question? I didn't ask "why can't I put things in my t-shirt pocket?"  I asked why t-shirt pockets are prohibited. I was looking for an explanation. If you don't have one, you don't have one, no reply necessary.

[Mitchell 1969]

As good a place as any to ask:

Does anyone know the why behind prohibiting pockets on black t-shirts? I've never understood why it is an issue.

Because.

No other reason is needed.

I figured as much. I was hoping there was an actual reason. I've noticed that the ones with pockets are often less expensive. Not an issue with me, but parents of cadets have mentioned it.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Okay so I thought I was done on this topic but apparently not....

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Could just be faulty memory...happens these days!   

[THRAWN]

Okay so I thought I was done on this topic but apparently not....

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Could just be faulty memory...happens these days!   

May have been semi-true in 1994, but 2011? Not saying you were fibbed to, but you might want to check the length of the nose on the person who told you that...

[Eclipse]

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Wow.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Okay so I thought I was done on this topic but apparently not....

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Could just be faulty memory...happens these days!   

May have been semi-true in 1994, but 2011? Not saying you were fibbed to, but you might want to check the length of the nose on the person who told you that...

Hmmm....I'm going to call it faulty memory at this stage...

[UH60guy]

Check the policy letters and stuff on govirginiawingcap.com. You will need to register for the site if you haven't. If there's a wing supplement to 39-1 it will be there. I'd look now but I'm away from a real computer at the moment.

In lieu of looking for it, I suspect an urban legend policy passed down orally by those who never read actual policy. Our squadron in VA is all in black shirts, many never have been to encampment.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Wow.

Indeed...that's why I check these things!  CAPTALK may not be an authority but it is informative!

[Brit_in_CAP]

Check the policy letters and stuff on govirginiawingcap.com. You will need to register for the site if you haven't. If there's a wing supplement to 39-1 it will be there. I'd look now but I'm away from a real computer at the moment.

In lieu of looking for it, I suspect an urban legend policy passed down orally by those who never read actual policy. Our squadron in VA is all in black shirts, many never have been to encampment.

Thanks for the offer but don't fret.....I'm much more inclined to view this as an urban legend, to be honest.  I did check the wing web site but I'll take another look later today, just to be on the safe side.

[a2capt]

Lame-(posterior) supplements like that just cause more [mess] than they are worth. When we have cross pollination in draw to activities .. and something like that with the black vs. brown is just as stupid as the dog dish cover creation.

[Storm Chaser]

Okay so I thought I was done on this topic but apparently not....

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Could just be faulty memory...happens these days!   

It may have been a local unit policy or just an unwritten "rule" pass down to others. It's likely based on Air Force unwritten customs regarding these t-shirts.

Back in the day, when new airmen went through BMT, they were issued brown t-shirts. MTIs wore black ones. These airmen usually had to wait to get to their permanent duty stations, after completing Tech School, to wear black t-shirts. This wasn't written anywhere, but that's the way it was.

[jeders]

Okay so I thought I was done on this topic but apparently not....

I read through the posts and it prompted a memory from my very first days in CAP - 2011 - when one of the longer-serving Senior Members told me the T shirt was brown and that black T shirts were for those who had been to encampment at least once.  Specifically he meant cadets.  I checked my notes but I didn't make a note about whether this as something specific to the wing (VA).

Comments?

Could just be faulty memory...happens these days!   

Mostly likely local policy or urban legend. We used to have a similar policy in our squadron for cadets; black for staff, brown for everyone else. Our policy was written down and published, but it was eventually dropped because it was mostly pointless.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Back in the day, when new airmen went through BMT, they were issued brown t-shirts. MTIs wore black ones.

Not only that, but my MTI often wore black T's with designs on them.

One of them said "[farg] You - I Have Enough Friends."

[JoeTomasone]

Check the policy letters and stuff on govirginiawingcap.com. You will need to register for the site if you haven't. If there's a wing supplement to 39-1 it will be there. I'd look now but I'm away from a real computer at the moment.

In lieu of looking for it, I suspect an urban legend policy passed down orally by those who never read actual policy. Our squadron in VA is all in black shirts, many never have been to encampment.

Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

The unit commander can decree that black = survived attended encampment by prescribing that color for part of the unit.

[Eclipse]

^ ...while at the same time is powerless to enforce that mandate for cadets unless the shirt is issued to them by CAP.

An inconsistency that really needs to be fixed.

[JoeTomasone]

^ ...while at the same time is powerless to enforce that mandate for cadets unless the shirt is issued to them by CAP.

An inconsistency that really needs to be fixed.

Incorrect, since the member can be simply told not to wear BDUs and to wear blues (required uniform) or to not participate in whatever the activity is.  Not that this is a palatable solution, but the shirt color CAN be enforced.

What is interesting is that an ACTIVITY commander is not afforded the same discretion..   

[Eclipse]

Incorrect, since the member can be simply told not to wear BDUs and to wear blues (required uniform) or to not participate in whatever the activity is.  Not that this is a palatable solution, but the shirt color CAN be enforced.

I dunno.  I can see it being interpreted that way, but not sure how far you'd get on a challenge.

A cadet shows up with a shirt that is within regs, but not within OI.  He's legal for national and CC wants him
to wear something the CC isn't issuing. 

Don't see how you can enforce that within the current paradigm.  39-1 clearly states you can only mandate items outside
the MBU if worn voluntarily or issued.  It doesn't grant authority to disallow otherwise authorized items in that same context.

Honestly I don't think you'd get very far on a unit shirt or hat mandate that by it's design barred cadets from wearing BDUs
if they couldn't afford the non-standard item.

[JoeTomasone]

Incorrect, since the member can be simply told not to wear BDUs and to wear blues (required uniform) or to not participate in whatever the activity is.  Not that this is a palatable solution, but the shirt color CAN be enforced.

I dunno.  I can see it being interpreted that way, but not sure how far you'd get on a challenge.

A cadet shows up with a shirt that is within regs, but not within OI.  He's legal for national and CC wants him
to wear something the CC isn't issuing. 

Don't see how you can enforce that within the current paradigm.

The current 39-1 dances around the issue thusly:

The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis.

Reading between the lines, the minimum basic uniform (short sleeve blues) will satisfy "most occasions".  Most, of course, is not all -- so the short sleeve blues will not satisfy ALL occasions.   Members, however, may obtain those other uniforms "on an optional basis".  That can be reasonably construed to say that if you want to participate in those occasions that the blues are not suitable for, it's your option to obtain the required uniform.



The Draft 39-1 tightens this up a little:

The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. All commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

Then it lays out what activities are suitable for each uniform type:

Service Dress Uniform (Class A)
Blue Shirt/Blouse Combinations (Class B)
Corporate Service Uniform
Aviator Shirt Combination

Service uniforms are the everyday uniform for CAP business. The appropriate combination depends on the commander's direction and the type of event, but these uniforms are usually worn for unit meetings, professional development events, conferences, etc.



Battle Dress Uniform
Flight Duty Uniform
CAP Field Uniform
Blue Flight Suit
Knit Polo Shirt Combination

These working uniforms are the appropriate uniform in a flying, field, or mission environment. Choice of which combination is appropriate depends on the commander's direction and the type of event.
The Knit Polo Shirt Combination may be worn in a flying, field or mission setting when the USAF-style Class B or Corporate Aviator Shirt Combination would be worn.



Mess Dress
AF Semi-Formal Uniform (authorized for cadets only)
Corporate Semi- Formal Uniform
Appropriate Civilian Attire

These uniforms are worn for social functions of a formal and/or official nature (e.g., black tie affairs). The tuxedo is the civilian equivalent.

Lastly:

May prohibit wear of optional items during formations, ceremonies, or other events when uniformity is required. Commanders may mandate wear of optional clothing if provided at no cost to the member, or is participation at an event is voluntary.

So if you disagree that we are already there, you really can't argue that it's not where we are headed.

[Eclipse]

^ You can't "read between the lines" one place when a specific definition of the MBU is indicated in another.

May prohibit wear of optional items during formations, ceremonies, or other events when uniformity is required. Commanders may mandate wear of optional clothing if provided at no cost to the member, or is participation at an event is voluntary.

So if you disagree that we are already there, you really can't argue that it's not where we are headed.

You're agreeing with me.

If the CC issues the shirt he can mandate.

If he prescribes the shirt but it is voluntary, no issue.

But he can't mandate a cadet wear anything but the MBU, or something issued.

The "CC may specify" isn't new in the draft, the problem is that only applies to seniors because of
the cadet clauses.

If we lay ES on the side, you still have the issue of unit meetings, and in that context, despite it
being an unofficial second uniform, a unit CC can't actually force a cadet wear BDUs at all unless
they are issued (and then I don't know how they get around the cost of insignia, etc.).

The reg should be specific and just give the CC UOD power and remove any cadet waivers.

This kind of stuff is what I was referring to when NHQ want to have hit both ways so they
don't offend anyone, defeating their own purpose, and making it harder for everyone in the
process because the rules aren't bright lines.

[JoeTomasone]

If the CC issues the shirt he can mandate.

If he prescribes the shirt but it is voluntary, no issue.

But he can't mandate a cadet wear anything but the MBU, or something issued.

The CC can indeed mandate something besides the MBU (under the draft, certainly, but I say under the current 39-1 too) - let's say BDUs - if participation in the event is voluntary.  So if there is an (optional) ES bivouac this weekend, the CC can mandate BDUs - if you don't have them, you don't go.   What the CC cannot do is mandate BDUs for a Squadron meeting since that is a required (right?) activity.