Firefighter Arrested

[Flying Pig]

Nope.  Hasn't changed.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This is silly.

I grew up next to a fire station and frequently there were police officers there discussing fires/accidents/etc they had both worked, or just shooting the bull.

They were a TEAM, with the same objective (public safety) but different routes to accomplishing it.

If one of my city's police officers had done that to one of our firefighters, likely said police officer would have been on "desk patrol" for a while.

[ol'fido]

Probably 80% of police, firefighters, EMS, and other workers(tow operators) you usually find at a traffic scene have worked together for years and know each other outside of that one incident. I can see some of the fire fighters and local cops being just as likely to tell a cop that tried what the CHP guy did to shove their sidearm where the sun don't shine and test fire it. When you start dealing with state-wide police agencies, however, things can change. Many of the Illinois State Police troopers that transfer out of the Chicago area to rural districts have some culture shock to deal with for instance. Things down here are more relaxed and the heavy handed attitude needed for working a large metropolitan area can turn on a trooper who comes down here.

I would also like to know how old and how experienced the cop in the story is. In the mid-90s, one of my colleagues had to take an inmate to the Health Care Unit at our parent institution. This was a minimum security transfer so there was no weapon or restraints used, but it was still an inmate and the officer was in uniform driving a marked Corrections vehicle. Part of the trip was on an interstate highway. When the officer went to exit the interstate, he saw that the state cops were running a check point at the top of the ramp so he steered back onto the interstate to go to the next exit. A young state trooper chased him down, pulled him over, and wanted to know why he had "avoided" their check point. Our officer and the trooper were "discussing" the matter when an older, more experienced trooper showed up. After the young trooper had explained what was going on, the older trooper looked at my buddy and said "Have a nice day" and then told the younger guy "Come on back to my car. We need to talk".

[MacGruff]

There was also a case a few years ago where Massachusetts imposed a higher tax on either Booze or Cigarettes (Don't remember which). New Hampshire did not, so many folks from Mass would cross the "border" and buy their stuff across the state line.

Mass State troopers started setting up in the New Hampshire parking lots and when they saw a Mass plate at one of the stores, would radio the plate to a fellow trooper in Mass who would arrest the culprits when they returned.

The New Hampshire folks did not like this and they dispatched their own state troopers to arrest the Mass troopers sitting in the parking lots!


That was patched over eventually, but I do not recall how.   

[Slim]

This is silly.

I grew up next to a fire station and frequently there were police officers there discussing fires/accidents/etc they had both worked, or just shooting the bull.

They were a TEAM, with the same objective (public safety) but different routes to accomplishing it.

If one of my city's police officers had done that to one of our firefighters, likely said police officer would have been on "desk patrol" for a while.

In my 24 years as a firefighter and EMT, this has been the case 99.5% of the time.  But there's always that .5% of the time where the gung ho pup fresh from the academy wants to strap on a gun, pin on a badge, and become a lawman!  He wants to prove to everyone and anyone that he's a cop, and the whole world is going to do what he tells them to, or he's gonna start hooking dirtbags. 

We have firefighters like that too.  They have the impression that they can do whatever they want; they drive too fast, run red lights, disregard one way signs, etc.  And then have the nerve to yell and scream when the cops get sick of warning them to knock it off and hang a ticket on them.  Which then brings the department into it, and they can't drive the rigs anymore, or get a few days off.

In either case, it usually falls on the old timers to pull the kids aside for a little chat, a reminder that we're all there for the same reasons, and on the same team. 

We all know one another, wives, kids, parents, etc.  We hang out together, have joint parties once in a while.  But the bottom line is that we all have to depend on each other.  I need to know that that cop will have my back when I need it, and he needs to know that I have his.

[FlyingThorn]

It's a non-issue now. The officer was way wrong and out of line and it's being dealt with accordingly.  Being in CA has nothing to do with it.

But has it been, really? Looking around all I can find is a smattering of buzzwords from the press.
The precedent for this kind of incident seems to be a slap on the wrist, or at most suspension. That might be enough retribution for the incident itself, but it still leaves a cop on the street who has behavior issues.
I say; Suspension of pay, counseling, and if it happens again, sack 'em.
I'll admit that I don't know, maybe that's actually what happens.
I don't know because these decisions are made behind closed doors. The higher-ups will be more concerned about damage control , but the best kind of damage control they could do is show they have their personnel in-check.

[abdsp51]

Really it's none of our business what action is taken against the Chippie.  Someone show me what law or policy was violated to warrant a suspension or something more than what may be done.  Let the CHP administer what they will and leave it at that.  And unless any of us has a degree in psychiatry or psychology we do not need to be making statements that the officer has behavior issues.

[FlyingThorn]

Really it's none of our business what action is taken against the Chippie.  Someone show me what law or policy was violated to warrant a suspension or something more than what may be done.  Let the CHP administer what they will and leave it at that.  And unless any of us has a degree in psychiatry or psychology we do not need to be making statements that the officer has behavior issues.

I have to disagree. The workings of public safety agencies are absolutely the business of the people. They are, after all, public agencies tasked with ensuring the our safety. All those public-s paint a picture that it is our business.
Beyond that, he divided attention and slowed down the very process that he was supposed to expedite. Another issue is with his discretion. He arrested a firefighter for blocking a lane with emergency personnel in it. He should've also arrested all the personnel on the highway, and the driver of the overturned vehicle for obstructing the roadway.
While we're talking about psychology; I notice that people often make a request, get denied, demand something, get denied again, and this cycles until they do something stupid and out of line, because they didn't want to back down. Its something I think everyone has done, but its not something that should be tolerated
If you don't think that's what happened here, that's a valid assumption of course.

[abdsp51]

I have to disagree. The workings of public safety agencies are absolutely the business of the people. They are, after all, public agencies tasked with ensuring the our safety. All those public-s paint a picture that it is our business.
Beyond that, he divided attention and slowed down the very process that he was supposed to expedite. Another issue is with his discretion. He arrested a firefighter for blocking a lane with emergency personnel in it. He should've also arrested all the personnel on the highway, and the driver of the overturned vehicle for obstructing the roadway.
While we're talking about psychology; I notice that people often make a request, get denied, demand something, get denied again, and this cycles until they do something stupid and out of line, because they didn't want to back down. Its something I think everyone has done, but its not something that should be tolerated
If you don't think that's what happened here, that's a valid assumption of course.

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.  There is more to the story the story than what the press put out there.  The only thing he is guilty of is a bad decision if anything but without all the facts he is still innocent till proven guilty in the matter. 

I wont make a call on this as all the facts are not present, but again how the department handles this is none of our business?

[bosshawk]

I concur and I live in CA, but you forgot that this is CAPtalk and everything is everyone's business(or so they seem to think).

[LSThiker]

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.

That depends on where you live.  It appears the West Virginia Supreme Court disagrees.  According to their Supreme Court, state trooper disciplinary records are a matter of public record:

http://wvrecord.com/news/264656-court-state-police-disciplinary-files-are-public-record

A list by state:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/police-misconduct-disclosure-laws/

[PHall]

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.

That depends on where you live.  It appears the West Virginia Supreme Court disagrees.  According to their Supreme Court, state trooper disciplinary records are a matter of public record:

http://wvrecord.com/news/264656-court-state-police-disciplinary-files-are-public-record

A list by state:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/police-misconduct-disclosure-laws/

Yeah, if you look at that list you provided you will notice that the records for California are "closed". As in nothing is released.
And yes, this has survived a number of lawsuits to open the records too.

[Panache]

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.

That depends on where you live.  It appears the West Virginia Supreme Court disagrees.  According to their Supreme Court, state trooper disciplinary records are a matter of public record:

http://wvrecord.com/news/264656-court-state-police-disciplinary-files-are-public-record

A list by state:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/police-misconduct-disclosure-laws/

Yeah, if you look at that list you provided you will notice that the records for California are "closed". As in nothing is released.
And yes, this has survived a number of lawsuits to open the records too.

Doesn't make it right.

[PHall]

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.

That depends on where you live.  It appears the West Virginia Supreme Court disagrees.  According to their Supreme Court, state trooper disciplinary records are a matter of public record:

http://wvrecord.com/news/264656-court-state-police-disciplinary-files-are-public-record

A list by state:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/police-misconduct-disclosure-laws/

Yeah, if you look at that list you provided you will notice that the records for California are "closed". As in nothing is released.
And yes, this has survived a number of lawsuits to open the records too.

Doesn't make it right.

It's right in California. It's also the law.

[LSThiker]

Yeah, if you look at that list you provided you will notice that the records for California are "closed". As in nothing is released.

Hence the reason why I said "it depends".

And yes, this has survived a number of lawsuits to open the records too.

Irrelevant.  Just because a law has "survived" a "number of lawsuits" does not mean it is right.  It simply means that it just has not had the justification to overturn it yet.  There have been numerous laws that survived lawsuits (either due to technicalities, judgements based on the courts, not making it to a higher court, or other reasons) to be simply struck down later.

Look at the Adler vs. Board of Education (1952). 

NY Supreme Court struck down Feinberg Law in 1949
US Supreme Court over ruled NY Supreme Court decision in 1952
Feinberg law remained on the books in NY and required employees to take loyalty oaths
US Supreme Court reversed its 1952 decision in 1967 with the case Keyishian vs Board of Regents.

Another example:  Scopes vs State of Tennessee (1926)
Criminal Court of Tennessee found Scopes guilty in 1925
Tennessee Supreme Court throws the case out on a technicality in 1926
Butler Act remains a Tennessee Law until 1967, when it was repealed by House Bill No. 48, which would have gotten overturned in 1968 by the US Supreme Court in Epperson v. Arkansas 393 U.S. 97 (1968) had TN not repealed the law.

[JeffDG]

If you want an even better example of "Legal" <> "Right" just go look up Korematsu v. United States, which the Supreme Court has yet to overrule.

[bosshawk]

I would suggest that, in the opinion of those saying it, :"right" doesn't really mean much legally.  The use of the term in this case simply means that the person saying it has an opinion.

[Mitchell 1969]

Really it's none of our business what action is taken against the Chippie.  Someone show me what law or policy was violated to warrant a suspension or something more than what may be done.  Let the CHP administer what they will and leave it at that.  And unless any of us has a degree in psychiatry or psychology we do not need to be making statements that the officer has behavior issues.

A further point - in case nobody else noticed - the only "facts" in this discussion are gleaned entirely from media accounts and one post-action joint-agency press release. There's a whole world of possibilities to consider that are unknown to this group or to the public at large.

Bottom line - the involved agencies are working it out. Move along now, folks. Nothing to see here.

[Mitchell 1969]

Hey may work for a public agency as you put it but he is still has his right privacy especially when it comes to administrative matters.  Contrary to public belief officers do not give up their right to privacy simply because they work for a "public" agency and his affairs within the agency is no ones business but his and the departments.  If CHP has disciplined the officer it is none of our business and I pay taxes to California.

That depends on where you live.  It appears the West Virginia Supreme Court disagrees.  According to their Supreme Court, state trooper disciplinary records are a matter of public record:

http://wvrecord.com/news/264656-court-state-police-disciplinary-files-are-public-record

A list by state:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/police-misconduct-disclosure-laws/

Yeah, if you look at that list you provided you will notice that the records for California are "closed". As in nothing is released.
And yes, this has survived a number of lawsuits to open the records too.

Doesn't make it right.

There are mechanisms to review and even release peace officer personnel records in CA under certain circumstances.

[abdsp51]

There are mechanisms to review and even release peace officer personnel records in CA under certain circumstances.

Yes there are, and simply because John Q. Public wants to know because they  feel entitled to know is not one of them.