Demotions

[nmkaufman0]

I heard my C/CC jokingly say that he was going to demote one of the Squadron's Chiefs, but it made me wonder: is it really possible for members to get demoted, and if so: how? Do you have to be a certain rank to demote, and if demoted, what do you need to do to promote again? Note: I'm not at risk of getting demoted, just curious.

[Storm Chaser]

CAPR 52-16, page 29, section 5-14

[arajca]

It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.

[LSThiker]

It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.

No, for cadets the demotion is carried out at the squadron level.  If it is appealed, then the final decision rests on the next echelon commander (group or wing).  Otherwise, it stays at the squadron level except a courtesy copy of a letter.

[lordmonar]

It's a non-trivial issue that involves levels above the squadron.

No, for cadets the demotion is carried out at the squadron level.  If it is appealed, then the final decision rests on the next echelon commander (group or wing).  Otherwise, it stays at the squadron level except a courtesy copy of a letter.

So it is a NON-TRIVIAL.....i.e. not a joke....issue that involves levels above the squadron.....i.e. the next echelon commander.

[LSThiker]

issue that involves levels above the squadron.....i.e. the next echelon commander.

It is only an issue that involves one level above the squadron if the cadet appeals.  If the cadet does not appeal, then the decision is a squadron level issue only.

So it is a non-trivial issue that involves only the squadron level except in times when the cadet appeals.  Then it becomes a non-trivial issue for only the next level above the squadron.

Demotion = non-trivial squadron level issue
Appeal = 1 level above the squadron (group or wing if no groups present) non-trivial issue

My point was that it does not involve levels (2 or more) above the squadron, only 1 level.  And it is only an issue above the squadron level if the cadet appeals.  If the cadet never appeals, then it never becomes an issue at the group/wing level.  I was not saying that it was not a non-trivial issue.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I only know personally of one demotion (from Captain to First Lieutenant) during 20-odd years in and out of CAP wher the person actually stayed in and didn't say "up an afterburner with this anyway."

Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.

Of course, it could be different with cadets.

[UH60guy]

Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.

Done right, it can be a useful tool.

I won't bore you with the full text here, but it's basically just like the speech I've had to give to a few junior enlisted when reading an Article 15 demoting them for one reason or another (never done it in CAP thankfully). The gist is trying to build them back up after the demotion- let them know this doesn't have to be a career ender. Many people recover from this and go on to do good things. Chalk it up to a learning experience (as they just weren't ready for the higher grade) and say this is their opportunity to regroup in their comfort zone of a lower rank, refocus, and get after it again.

Done wrong, people can brood, internalize, and feel worthless- that leads to people that do have a salvageable purpose deciding to hang up the uniform and quit.

Post demotion mentorship is key.

[Eclipse]

I agree in the abstract, but the CAP reality is a lot different.

On the cadet side, where the cadets are taking from CAP, infractions are likely to be objective and corrected, and the
cadet is still hopeful regarding a wealth of opportunity, then demotions and other disciplinary actions can be
a "turning point" in a young person's life, especially if they haven't had much structure or push-back in their life to that point.

But for adults, most situations where I've seen demotions considered, the organization, or at least the leaders involved,
were as much or more at fault then the member, and in far too many cases it's a "he who can urinate higher" situation
that has absolutely nothing to do with grade, authority or who is "right".

Letting members run roughshod over regs, policies, and other members for months or years and then
having to discipline someone who was never properly "tuned" from day one as a "last straw effort" is a command failing,
not a member failing.

I guess if you do something really outside the lane, and understand you were really wrong and want to make
up for it, or you want to set an example for your people about how the world works (Admiral Kirk was "demoted" to Captain
after saving the earth because rules are rules, and you can't just go around stealing starships without consequences, etc.)

But in reality, I can't imagine that anyone who is far enough off the CAP mark to be demoted would care about sticking
around anyway.

Since grade isn't tied to money, or your job, or anything else meaningful except for personal effort and achievement,
demoting a senior just denigrates "work already done", while simultaneously expecting "more work will be done" because the
member being demoted is going to stick around and redouble efforts to make CAP love them again.

What's the actual punishment?  A $100 Vanguard fine in having to re-buy your previous grade and the effort in sewing?
And from there, the member becomes 100% beholden to the command chain to be restored, since you can't revoke
PD Levels, there's no actual "work" to be redone to earn your click back.  You're in "goodfella limbo" until 1-3 people
think you've served your penance.

I'm trying to come up with something serious enough to be demoted, but not serious enough to get you terminated, where
you'd still stick around.   

On he cadet side, I've known of more then a few cadets who were demoted for either disciplinary issues or "failure to perform
at grade level".  Generally the former don't stick around very long, but the latter straighten up and move on and up. 

As mentioned, a lot of it is how the message is delivered and what follows after.

[Pulsar]

It is only an issue that involves one level above the squadron if the cadet appeals.  If the cadet does not appeal, then the decision is a squadron level issue only.

"let those who appeal to Caesar...go to Caesar!"

[lordmonar]

I only know personally of one demotion (from Captain to First Lieutenant) during 20-odd years in and out of CAP wher the person actually stayed in and didn't say "up an afterburner with this anyway."

Most that I have had any direct knowledge of facing demotion usually just quit.

Of course, it could be different with cadets.

I've demoted two cadets in my 12 years in CP......both of them stayed with the program, learned their lessons and moved on.

A lot of it has to do with how and why you do the demotion....and how you mentor during the make up time.

I have had more cadets quit because we delayed a promotion.....go figure.

[nmkaufman0]

They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.

[Mitchell 1969]

They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.

To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."

Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."

[nmkaufman0]

I was trying to be helpful, Sir. Apologies if I jumped to conclusions too rapidly.

[Alaric]

They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.

To quote Sherlock Holmes: "Never theorize in advance of the facts."

Delaying promotions happens for many reasons, not the least of which being an articulated need to do so. Deciding that such a need exists can only be done by "...paying attention to them..."

No reason to jump on him, he gave you a theory, and not an illogical one.

[lordmonar]

They might've felt like you weren't paying attention to them, Sir.

Not possible.   When you sit a cadet down, hand him a CAPF 50, explain exactly what the problem is, what my expectations were, how long I wanted to see the improved behavior....and then had to do the same thing the following week with their parents.........I was not ignoring anyone.

When I say "delayed promotion" I was not talking about some super secret double probation.
My cadets are pretty aware of when they are eligible for promotion when they complete all the requirements they turn in their "promotion agreements" and we process the promotion....if the CDC decides that the cadet is not ready....we do a form 50 explaining what is wrong and why.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."

Of course, Master Sergeant, your experience in the RealMilitary (mine too) would teach you that "if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist."

[Eclipse]

^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."

Cadets are not allowed to be "non-promoted without comment" - the regulations require that the denial include a specific reason why
along with a remediation plan.

(Not so for seniors).

[lordmonar]

^^That's a heck of a lot better than the way too many CAP units do with non-promotions, both senior and cadet, rather than to just say "you're not ready."

Of course, Master Sergeant, your experience in the RealMilitary (mine too) would teach you that "if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist."

My experience in the RealMilitary would teach me that your subordinates can't fix things if you have not told them what is wrong and what they need to do to fix it.

Even if the reason for non-promotion is "I just don't like you" at least you know what the problem is and you can do something to fix it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(Not so for seniors).

That sucks vacuum.

Even if the reason for non-promotion is "I just don't like you" at least you know what the problem is and you can do something to fix it.

Maybe.  One thing I have learned through life experience and university-level psychology/sociology courses is that you cannot make anyone like you, and some people are just not going to, no matter what your best efforts may be.  A lot of people do not like me (mostly because very introverted people are too often mistaken for being aloof).  I don't even like myself sometimes!

So what do you do when someone in that situation is responsible for seeing if you promote or not, they will not like you no matter how hard you try, and are unable to disconnect themselves from their personal feelings about you to be objective about your "worthiness" or lack thereof?

In the RealMilitary (active), you can request a transfer - and there's no guarantee you'll get it.  If you're in the Guard or Reserve, you can request to join another unit - which may necessitate a move on your part, if there isn't another unit close by with a vacancy for your MOS/AFSC.

In CAP, what do you do?  Do you stay in that unit when you know Commander Johnny Fartpants does not like you and will not allow you to advance?  Do you join another unit (given that there IS another unit that won't require an overnight stay just to go to a unit meeting)?  Or do you just leave CAP altogether?