Senior Rating Personnel

[DMinick]

I am currently studying to get my senior rating for the Personnel officer. While looking through the pamphlet, I see I must take a test in order to get it. While trying to find the answers to the questions in the phamphlet I can't find the references listed on the examination. For instance CAPM 20-1. I found CAPR 20-1. Is this the same thing?

The other issue I have is if these are the same then the National Board and the National Executive Committee are no longer listed. CAPR 20-1 was updated this year while the last time the pamphlet for personnel was update was in 97. So any suggestions on finding the answers?

[AlphaSigOU]

One and the same. Study guides for many specialty tracks are notoriously outdated. The CAP National Board is now called the CAP Command Council, while the National Executive Committee is now the CAP Senior Advisory Group.

[SARDOC]

Unfortunately, most will tell you that the test is still required although it obviously doesn't comply with the current regulations.  I would make the case to your unit commander to waive the test in approving your rating, but do so by explaining to them why the test is outdated.

[DMinick]

Thank you both! I will talk with my commander.

[SarDragon]

When I took my test, my commander and I sat down when scoring it, and discussed the answers as they appear in the new regs. The premise of the exam is to test knowledge of how things are done, not just to dig answers out of regs. I don't think waiving the test is an acceptable option.

[SARDOC]

When I took my test, my commander and I sat down when scoring it, and discussed the answers as they appear in the new regs. The premise of the exam is to test knowledge of how things are done, not just to dig answers out of regs. I don't think waiving the test is an acceptable option.

But if you can't find some of the answers because the test is written in the pamphlet and it references Documents and CAP structure that has completely changed and is obsolete.  What's the point of taking the test?  To Test information that isn't applicable to anything anymore?

As a Squadron Commander, I've waived the actual sitting down and taking of the exam..because it's pointless.  I did however have a lengthy discussion concerning Personnel matters as well as Civil Air Patrol Structure and Governance.

[SarDragon]

When I took my test, my commander and I sat down when scoring it, and discussed the answers as they appear in the new regs. The premise of the exam is to test knowledge of how things are done, not just to dig answers out of regs. I don't think waiving the test is an acceptable option.

But if you can't find some of the answers because the test is written in the pamphlet and it references Documents and CAP structure that has completely changed and is obsolete.  What's the point of taking the test?  To Test information that isn't applicable to anything anymore?

As a Squadron Commander, I've waived the actual sitting down and taking of the exam..because it's pointless.  I did however have a lengthy discussion concerning Personnel matters as well as Civil Air Patrol Structure and Governance.

Then address the changes. The Qs, for the most part are still valid. The ones that aren't, because of changes in how things are done (the governance changes come to mind), can be addressed, according to the intent of the Q.

Let's look at one:

1. The National Board is the governing body of Civil Air Patrol. List the officers which comprise this body. [CAPM 20-1]

The intent is for the "trainee" to understand who runs CAP. The new info is fairly easy to find in the new regs.

I took the test right at the transition, and ended up having to include both sets of positions. Did it take longer? Sure. But I proved that I had an understanding of the material.

Adapting to change is something a personnel officer should be able to do. What's to say answers won't change in the future?

[Larry Mangum]

When I took my test, my commander and I sat down when scoring it, and discussed the answers as they appear in the new regs. The premise of the exam is to test knowledge of how things are done, not just to dig answers out of regs. I don't think waiving the test is an acceptable option.

But if you can't find some of the answers because the test is written in the pamphlet and it references Documents and CAP structure that has completely changed and is obsolete.  What's the point of taking the test?  To Test information that isn't applicable to anything anymore?

As a Squadron Commander, I've waived the actual sitting down and taking of the exam..because it's pointless.  I did however have a lengthy discussion concerning Personnel matters as well as Civil Air Patrol Structure and Governance.

While I am can see why you wanted to waive the test, you must ask yourself under what authority can I waive the test, i.e. what regulation gives me the right or authority to do so. If you cannot find a regulation that does, then you cannot waive the requirement.

[Brad]

When I took the Comms Senior and Master tests, I simply kept retaking the test online until I got the old information right. That and managing to find the old 100-1, 100-2, and 100-3. 100 Hz tone anyone? The Senior test was brought up to date right after I took it (typical) and I think the Master test has been or is in the process of being updated.

[SarDragon]

This is primarily about the Personnel track. It's one of the oldest, and therefore out of date, specialty tracks. That, IMHO, doesn't mean that the test should be summarily waived. Most of the Qs are still valid, but require a little more work to answer. The end result remains a familiarity with the regs a Personnel Officer needs to do his/her job.

[Brad]

Fair enough sir, but the Comms track has been equally outdated with its tests. Still using obsolete frequency designators from the 90's that unless you were in CAP way back then you have no way of knowing, still referencing an entire regulation that doesn't even exist anymore (CAPR 100-2), and other problems.

[Eclipse]

NHQ has granted the subjective approval for completion of these tracks to the unit CC, that includes the subjective decision
as to what constitutes staff service and the other items specified.

If that reality isn't good enough, then raise it to your wing CC for him to consider a supplement or waiver.

[SARDOC]

When I took my test, my commander and I sat down when scoring it, and discussed the answers as they appear in the new regs. The premise of the exam is to test knowledge of how things are done, not just to dig answers out of regs. I don't think waiving the test is an acceptable option.

But if you can't find some of the answers because the test is written in the pamphlet and it references Documents and CAP structure that has completely changed and is obsolete.  What's the point of taking the test?  To Test information that isn't applicable to anything anymore?

As a Squadron Commander, I've waived the actual sitting down and taking of the exam..because it's pointless.  I did however have a lengthy discussion concerning Personnel matters as well as Civil Air Patrol Structure and Governance.

While I am can see why you wanted to waive the test, you must ask yourself under what authority can I waive the test, i.e. what regulation gives me the right or authority to do so. If you cannot find a regulation that does, then you cannot waive the requirement.

See that's where we will differ.

Instead of looking for a regulatory citation that allows me to waive it.  I look into the regulation that requires that I use the CAPP 200 at all.  There is none.  I know that it's standard practice to follow the criteria in the pamphlet.  However, CAPR 50-17 just refers to the Pamphlets as study material recommended for the specialty track and

"Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.

There is nothing in the regulations that make the Pamphlets required with few exceptions.  There are regulations that require the use of a pamphlet because they are adopted by reference.  However, the Personnel Specialty track is not one of those exceptions.

There is no requirement that anybody has to ever take the Senior Personnel Test at all.  It's just incorrectly assumed, so since the test is obsolete, I opt to question the candidate in the spirit in which the pamphlet is intended.  Yes, there is some good information in there but I think we are doing a disservice to our members by not teaching them to the current structure and guidance of the Civil Air Patrol.

[DMinick]

So the test is not required to be taken in order to get the Senior rating then? I guess, like many others, I just assumed that it was since it was in the pamphlet! I guess I have a lot more to study!! Thank you all for your input on this!

[SARDOC]

^^^ I would still review the test.  I would just read the current documents regarding Structure and Governance.  They aren't that exciting but being a Senior Rated Personnel Officer you should be able to provide advice to Commander's at any level advice on these matters.

[Eclipse]

So the test is not required to be taken in order to get the Senior rating then? I guess, like many others, I just assumed that it was since it was in the pamphlet! I guess I have a lot more to study!! Thank you all for your input on this!

I don't know that I would go that far, but again, it's the subjective call of your commander.

[Dracosbane]

Pro tip - Due to the nature of CAP, it's regulations, manuals, and the regular changes involved, it is not so much that you have every piece of paper memorized to recall at the drop of a hat.  It is better to know where to go and how to find the answer you're being asked to give to quesitons posed of you. 

This is not just for matters of personell, but for any issue related to our organization (and in life).  Sometimes I can advise on any number of topics immediately.  Sometimes it takes a few minutes of research.  Sometimes it takes longer.  Good officers and good leaders know this and are prepared accordingly.

[SARDOC]

Pro tip - Due to the nature of CAP, it's regulations, manuals, and the regular changes involved, it is not so much that you have every piece of paper memorized to recall at the drop of a hat.  It is better to know where to go and how to find the answer you're being asked to give to quesitons posed of you.

I'm all for encouraging the use of a reference when providing advice...Knowing where to find it is an important part.

However, I think the whole point of having the written test for the Senior Level Personnel rating is that they actually want you to be more of a subject matter expert and knowing some of the CAP structure and Governance from memory.

Another very important function to be performed by the master personnel officer is assisting the unit commander and subordinate commanders (if applicable) concerning CAP organizational matters. In training for the technician's rating, you were required to study organizational structure of CAP as outlined in CAPM 20-1. To attain the senior skill rating, you were required to become even more familiar with this manual as it relates to your own unit
headquarters. To attain the master rating, you will be required to know the organizational structure of CAP so
well that you can outline any organizational chart at any level without reference to CAPM 20-1. Before certifying
your master's rating, the unit commander or unit testing officer will require you to do just that!