Uniforms and Rank/Grade

[Eclipse]

But assuming our seniors are on par with the average American (IOW, there is nothing about CAP that makes us somehow either larger or smaller than average), then it seems clear to me that the "outside H/W group" represents a distinct minority of our membership.

I strongly disagree with this statement.  One need only look around at their average meeting, activity, or the photos national publishes to know that those restricted
from wearing USAF uniforms are not a "minority", and I assert they are at least 1/2 the senior membership.

As to obtaining the data, why not weigh everyone?

Or, we could look at WMIRS and check the W&B sheets from released sorties.  I've seen plenty of member fudge the line, but rarely do they
lie when they are flying.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Or, we could look at WMIRS and check the W&B sheets from released sorties.  I've seen plenty of member fudge the line, but rarely do they
lie when they are flying.

I don't think that would be statistically valid. You would just have active aircrews in that group.

[Eclipse]

Or, we could look at WMIRS and check the W&B sheets from released sorties.  I've seen plenty of member fudge the line, but rarely do they
lie when they are flying.

I don't think that would be statistically valid. You would just have active aircrews in that group.

I agree, but it would certainly give an indication, it would be a start, and at least there would be some reasonable
chance the data is accurate, or close.  We can't use eServices data because I know from just being in there all the time
with member records that most people aren't being "accurate" with that weight, or it's their cadet weight, etc.

[RogueLeader]

Yes, the commander can set a UOD, but how can he/she enforce it?

Tell them to be in the correct uniform , and let them know that they will be sent home.  Wrong uniform: see you next week in the correct uniform.  If that doesn't work, counsel them.  If that doesn't work, ground/suspend privileges.  That doesn't work, terminate them.

Not everyone has AF-style service uniform or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. We do have a published UOD for every week of the month, but on any given day you will see at least three types of uniforms being worn (AF-style, corporate equivalent, Golf shirt).

Why don't they have blues or G/W?  It is the mandated uniform that all personnel have.  Either AF blues or G/W.  I make sure that they know that in the first conversation when they inquire about joining.  I also talk about the regular costs of being active.

[JeffDG]

I can't imagine how we might reasonably find the actual percentage, which would require weighing all of our seniors (or at least a statistically valid sample and extrapolating.)

We could get an approximation from folks that have filled in the data...it's on your 101 card, and in the CAPWATCH DB.

Someone send me the national one and I can do it in a couple hours of work...

[Eclipse]

Guaranteed those numbers aren't right.

[JeffDG]

Just for the heck of it, I ran my wing...among Senior Members

3.7% have either (a) No Ht/Wt, or are off the height chart (<4'10", >6'8")

For Females:
31% do not meet, 63% do (5.7% are off height chart)

For Males:
27% do not meet, 70% do (3.2% off chart)

Total:
28% do not meet, 68% do.

For Cadets:
Female:  6% do not, 51% do, 44% off chart (<4'10")
Male:  1% do not, 52% do, 47% off chart
Overall:  2% do not, 52% do, 46% off chart

70% of members have height/weight information in the system, 30% do not

[JeffDG]

Guaranteed those numbers aren't right.

They don't need to be exactly right for the purposes here, they just need to show over/under a certain number.

[Eclipse]

Agreed, but that's "internet truth", but still these numbers show about ~30% right off the bat.

Factor in fudge, numbers never updated, and people just not being truthful, and I don't think it'd be a stretch to get into the 40's pretty easily, if not more.

[JeffDG]

With a sample size of 788 members (Cadet and Senior) with data:

Median height was 69" (5'9") with a standard deviation of 3.92", so 95% of our members should be between 5'1" and 6'5" (so pretty close to reality)

Median weight was 173 pounds with a standard deviation of 43.95 pounds. (95% between 85 and 260 pounds)

The median deviation from the Ht/Wt chart was 31 pounds under the chart with a standard deviation of 37 pounds. (95% between 102 pounds under and 44 pounds over)

[Eclipse]

If it proved out I'd accept 30-40% as "the number", though you also have to factor in participation.
Where would the needle move if we dumped out the empty shirts?

So for even this conversation, is the experience of say, 35% of the membership something that can be simply ignored for the sake of affinity?

What about if that 35% of the membership makes up the majority of the active members who actually show up?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Rogue...

Many members do not get the mandated uniforms... because the squadron commanders do not enforce that!

In my previous squadron I served under two commanders. Both would say "The uniform is a polo!" I transferred to the squadron I am in. Again the same story. "The required uniform is a polo."

Until commanders at all levels start saying "You are expected to buy either a USAF Blues or a White/Gray but can wear a polo" will members own the Corporate or USAF.

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

Why don't they have blues or G/W?  It is the mandated uniform that all personnel have.  Either AF blues or G/W.  I make sure that they know that in the first conversation when they inquire about joining.  I also talk about the regular costs of being active.

CAPM 39-1 may state that "[m]embers will equip themselves with the basic uniform", which include these two combinations, however in practice many senior members only buy the golf shirt and gray pants when they join and never buy a basic uniform. I guess we could always exclude them from participating on certain activities, but somehow I don't think that's the most effective solution, especially when the policy is not applied evenly through every unit.

[Eclipse]

The "fix" is to send all commanders the proper information, tell new members from day one, and require all existing members to comply within six months.
Eat the anguish and move on.

Then start enforcing the regs, with ramifications, from that point forward.

This alone would fix a lot of the uniform and expectation issues in one act.

As USAFAUX2004 said, in the current climate, those scofflaws benefit while those who comply stew in silence, and no one cares enough to fix it.

[lordmonar]

CAPM 39-1 may state that "[m]embers will equip themselves with the basic uniform", which include these two combinations, however in practice many senior members only buy the golf shirt and gray pants when they join and never buy a basic uniform. I guess we could always exclude them from participating on certain activities, but somehow I don't think that's the most effective solution, especially when the policy is not applied evenly through every unit.

Well since this is a volunteer organization......we don't have a lot of options.
We got the carrot and we got the stick.

So what carrots do we got?  Promotion?  Decoration?
What sticks do we got?   I think the "limit participation" or maybe a blanket "Photos for CAP ID's will only be in a CAP basic uniform".

At least they will wear it once.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I know for a fact folks who are not within h/w, yet eservices reflects the maximum weight for their supposed height. 

[RogueLeader]

Rogue...

Many members do not get the mandated uniforms... because the squadron commanders do not enforce that!

In my previous squadron I served under two commanders. Both would say "The uniform is a polo!" I transferred to the squadron I am in. Again the same story. "The required uniform is a polo."

Until commanders at all levels start saying "You are expected to buy either a USAF Blues or a White/Gray but can wear a polo" will members own the Corporate or USAF.

Flyer

I most certainly do.  I don't even bring up the polo shirt option.  It most certainly not allowed for Seniors who are working with Cadets.  I mandate it by way of UOD orders, and getting buy in with this fair simple to understand rationale:

If all the Cadets are expected to meet certain rules as far as uniform wear, how can you in good conscience be wearing a uniform to lower standards of dress, when you are to be serving as a positive role model?

If there are excuses as to why they shouldn't be held to the same, or higher standard, they'll find themselves in a different section.  Fortunately, thus far, I've had good luck with that.

If they ask about the Polo option,  I answer truthfully.  Yes it is an authorized "uniform combination," but I prefer it not to be worn.

[Storm Chaser]

Rogue...

Many members do not get the mandated uniforms... because the squadron commanders do not enforce that!

In my previous squadron I served under two commanders. Both would say "The uniform is a polo!" I transferred to the squadron I am in. Again the same story. "The required uniform is a polo."

Until commanders at all levels start saying "You are expected to buy either a USAF Blues or a White/Gray but can wear a polo" will members own the Corporate or USAF.

Flyer

I most certainly do.  I don't even bring up the polo shirt option.  It most certainly not allowed for Seniors who are working with Cadets.  I mandate it by way of UOD orders, and getting buy in with this fair simple to understand rationale:

If all the Cadets are expected to meet certain rules as far as uniform wear, how can you in good conscience be wearing a uniform to lower standards of dress, when you are to be serving as a positive role model?

If there are excuses as to why they shouldn't be held to the same, or higher standard, they'll find themselves in a different section.  Fortunately, thus far, I've had good luck with that.

If they ask about the Polo option,  I answer truthfully.  Yes it is an authorized "uniform combination," but I prefer it not to be worn.

I'm not disagreeing that it should be that way, but reality in many units is a different story. I agree with Eclipse and Lordmonar about options to address this, and it would certainly help if the push is coming from above.

[NCRblues]

You know, if we put in even half the energy into say...finding alternate funding or making inroads to new missions as we do uniforms...

"Endless possibilities captain"

[Eclipse]

You know, if we put in even half the energy into say...finding alternate funding or making inroads to new missions as we do uniforms...

"Endless possibilities captain"

This isn't "energy".  If anything, it's the opposite, and NHQ hasn't put anything into uniforms, or more importantly the
enforcement of the regulations and culture around them, in over a decade.  HWSRN's foibles not withstanding,
they've been static since the '90's and the changes we've seen trivial.

The occasional discussion or 39-1 committee doesn't count.

Somehow we can find the will and the means to force members to watch the same safety videos over and over,
including tracking, stats, and actual ramifications, yet getting people to wear the uniform properly, or
getting us into a "uniform", seems to be a sisyphean effort.

Open the floor to wearing metal grade, or adding a new decoration, or all the "special" stuff from certain
activities - that gets attention and initiative.

Take the conversation to "weigh in or take it off", and no one wants to be bothered.