Uniforms and Rank/Grade

[lordmonar]

Say it.....say you want us to drop the USAF uniform and go to an all volunteer, corporate organization.

Please....I beg you to say it.....because if we drop the USAF uniforms that is exactly what we are going to get.....and 98% of all the rest of your arguments on all your other threads immediately fall to pieces.

?  I can't say it because it isn't true.  I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE THE USAF STYLE UNIFORMS.  I do not want to lose the affinity and status as a military auxilary,
nor do I have any disdain for decs or badges.

I want one uniform for all members.  Those are not mutually exclusive propositions.

Therefore......assuming the USAF status quo.....the only alternative is to kick out those that don't meet USAF standards.

[Eclipse]

Why is status quo assumed?

We're apparently hot to trot about ABUs, which we have no use for, how about asking on something meaningful?

[Shuman 14]

I'll throw this out there... how many civilians recognize the USAF's uniform when they see it?

Seriously I've been in Army Dress Blues and asked if I was in the Navy and many moons ago as a young LCPL  out and about in my Charlies was asked how I like the Army. In my USCGAux uniform I was confused for an Air Force Officer.

So if CAP was to adopt one Corporate uniform... be it a blue or grey airline pilot style, WWII Khaki, or an even more modified USAF style... would the general public know who you were and the CAP/USAF connection? 

[lordmonar]

Why is status quo assumed?

We're apparently hot to trot about ABUs, which we have no use for, how about asking on something meaningful?

That's a whole different argument.  Which I agree with....but I have no data one way or the other of what the "USAF" really feels about our uniforms and neither does the NUC from what I understand.

[RiverAux]

So if CAP was to adopt one Corporate uniform... be it a blue or grey airline pilot style, WWII Khaki, or an even more modified USAF style... would the general public know who you were and the CAP/USAF connection? 

Nope.  They still asked us if we were in the Army as we were walking around with big blue tapes saying CIVIL AIR PATROL on them.  We're too small to have our uniform be a recognizable "brand" no matter what it is.

[Private Investigator]

Seriously I've been in Army Dress Blues and asked if I was in the Navy and many moons ago as a young LCPL  out and about in my Charlies was asked how I like the Army. In my USCGAux uniform I was confused for an Air Force Officer.

I was wearing the white aviator shirt on AFBs and have been asked multiple times if I was Canadian   

[ZigZag911]

Besides, they have other priorities beyond chasing down 12 year old Sea Cadets or ACA members that they think are wearing the uniform improperly.

Interesting...the US Army, Navy and Marine Corps have more important things to do than chase down folks they feel are wearing their uniforms improperly, but, by implication, the USAF does not?!?

[RogueLeader]

Why is status quo assumed?

We're apparently hot to trot about ABUs, which we have no use for, how about asking on something meaningful?

We have as much use for ABU's as we do BDU's, which is as we all know, it's the utility uniform of our parent service.  It's part of the whole affinity issue that was just discussed.

If I had a vote in a particular utlity uniform pattern, I would vote for multicam, due to the possibilities of being multipurposed.  However, since I was not asked, and it's not what the AF is using as a main utility uniform (only in theater in certain roles) I can not in good conscious  advocate such a uniform change.

[FW]

I want one uniform for all members.  Those are not mutually exclusive propositions.
Therefore......assuming the USAF status quo.....the only alternative is to kick out those that don't meet USAF standards.

Yes, however I don't see CAP kicking out any member who honors their commitment to the organization.  Multiforms will be the rule until the USAF changes the status quo...

[Eclipse]

Multiforms

Awesome.

Consider the phrase COINED!

[abdsp51]

Uniforms really even shouldn't be much of an issue we have the two types AF and Corp.  In order to wear AF you need to meet H/W and abide by the grooming standards.  For those that choose to not meet grooming or H/W there is the Corp (this does not include those who cannot meet H/W or  grooming for a valid medical reason). 

Do we need uniforms yes to present a UNIFORM appearence,  this can only be done by adherence and enforcement of standards.  To often people don't want to hurt someone's feelings, or be the "bad guy" to correct a uniform issue.  Sometime's being the "bad guy" is what is needed to be a good solid leader. 

Grade, is it needed maybe maybe not but we have it and honestly it helps to sort out who may be heading an event up.  Since we are a paramilitary organization it helps establish roles and structure. 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Uniforms really even shouldn't be much of an issue we have the two types AF and Corp.  In order to wear AF you need to meet H/W and abide by the grooming standards.  For those that choose to not meet grooming or H/W there is the Corp (this does not include those who cannot meet H/W or  grooming for a valid medical reason). 

And the regulation citation for the bolded part is where?

[Storm Chaser]

If the uniform wasn't an issue, we wouldn't have so many discussions about it. At a minimum, the uniform debate is a distraction that can potentially take away from the mission or other more important issues or priorities.

As an example, my unit had a banquet a few months ago and while some of the members were in USAF-style service and service dress uniforms or corporate equivalent (blazer, aviator shirt), others were in civilian attire. Some were even wearing their CAP Golf shirt uniform combination. Did it prevent us from having the banquet? No. Do similar situations prevent us from accomplishing ES or other types of missions? No. But it does have an effect on moral, esprit de corps and the image we present to those inside and outside our organization.

In the USAF, we have different types of uniforms, but they have a functional purpose and are used with a certain level of consistency. If you're a flyer, you wear a flight suit. If you're doing PT, you wear the PT uniform. If you're an aircraft maintainer, security forces, etc. you wear ABUs. That is different from going to a CAP meeting and seeing members in BDU, BBDU, Aviator shirt, AF-style Blues, Golf shirt with gray slacks, Golf shirt with grey cargo pants, green Flight Suit, blue Flight Suit, etc.

Yes, the commander can set a UOD, but how can he/she enforce it? In my unit, for example, not everyone has BDUs or BBDUs. Not everyone has AF-style service uniform or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. We do have a published UOD for every week of the month, but on any given day you will see at least three types of uniforms being worn (AF-style, corporate equivalent, Golf shirt).

I, for one, would like CAP to have one type of uniform, whether that is a corporate or Air Force-style uniform. I wear the AF-style uniform 85% of the time, but would gladly wear something else if it meant we had a single set of uniforms (one field, one service, one flight, etc.). I know many disagree, but that just proves that we can't agree on the right solution to this problem (if it wasn't a problem, we wouldn't be debating about it so much). Because we can't agree on a solution or because we're limited on viable solutions, we just remain with the status quo of having the many different uniform styles and combinations we have today.

[abdsp51]

Uniforms really even shouldn't be much of an issue we have the two types AF and Corp.  In order to wear AF you need to meet H/W and abide by the grooming standards.  For those that choose to not meet grooming or H/W there is the Corp (this does not include those who cannot meet H/W or  grooming for a valid medical reason). 

And the regulation citation for the bolded part is where?

The regulations states corp for those who do not abide by H/W or grooming will wear Corp uniforms.  I am well aware there are members who have medical conditions that impact their ability to be compliant with the H/W requirements to wear the AF style uniform and should not be lumped in with those members that simply choose not to. 

Do we have different uniforms yes we do to accomodate our membership is it a headache it can be, but really enforcement is the key to not having headaches.  And gasp the bulk of the uniform infractions I have seen have been in the Corp style uniform. 

[FW]

I, for one, would like CAP to have one type of uniform, whether that is a corporate or Air Force-style uniform. I wear the AF-style uniform 85% of the time, but would gladly wear something else if it meant we had a single set of uniforms (one field, one service, one flight, etc.). I know many disagree, but that just proves that we can't agree on the right solution to this problem (if it wasn't a problem, we wouldn't be debating about it so much). Because we can't agree on a solution or because we're limited on viable solutions, we just remain with the status quo of having the many different uniform styles and combinations we have today.

(As I'm stuck inside and, eating my lunch, I'll continue with contributing to this "worthwile" thread...)

I totally agree with the above comment.  "We" will never agree with a total solution.  There have been so many opinons on this subject, I don't have a need to go over any possible solution or permutations. It's been well said by so many others, and so many times...

So, unless our leadership can come up with a solution which will retain our members' interest and support, we will stay on this same road...

[Walkman]

Yes, the commander can set a UOD, but how can he/she enforce it? In my unit, for example, not everyone has BDUs or BBDUs. Not everyone has AF-style service uniform or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. We do have a published UOD for every week of the month, but on any given day you will see at least three types of uniforms being worn (AF-style, corporate equivalent, Golf shirt).

This is more than a command problem. In my mind, its part of the "I'm a volunteer, you're lucky I'm even here" mentality. I have the uniform to cover any UoD. Now, I didn't buy them all at once, I started with short sleeve blues and BDUs, but over the past years, I managed to get full service dress, a flight suit and polo combo.

"But not everyone can afford to buy all those uniforms" you'll hear. About a year after I joined, I lost a major client and income source from the recession. The following four years have held significant money challenges for my family and we're still trying to get back on our feet. Yet, I managed to find a way. For my service dress jacket I found an enlisted one that fit from our squadron supply and then found a pair of matching pants that had a stain. A close friend who used to be a seamstress used the old pants to create the epaulets and sewed on the braid, etc. I spent maybe $20-ish on that. Ebay has used flight suits all over the place. I have two (different sizes) that I bought for around $35-ish. The unembroidered polos aren't that much either. Sometimes I used birthday or christmas money. Sometimes I would forgo other niceties to afford it, brown baggin' lunch.

I bought them even through financial hardship because I'm dedicated to CAP. Its the same reason I have 3 squadron duties and a group staff assignment. I don't expect every new member to jump in and buy all the uniform varieties (AF style or corp.) before they pin on butterbars. IMNSHO, if someone is going to show up week to week for a while, they should get around to being part of the team and doing things right.

[Майор Хаткевич]

For CAP uniforms, I'd prefer to get it right, but I follow the herd - someone mentioned earlier we shouldn't wear baseball caps w/rank with the polo combo - heck, everyone in my Wing does that!  Not gonna worry about it until Wing makes a case. . .sure would like a tactical/cargo khaki pants combo, though.

Thanks for being part of the problem!

Shoot, I just got that hat, to replace a disreputable looking sweat-stained article. If my Wing doesn't have some dispensation or locally authority for the hats, you may be right. For all I know, it the caps may have been approved by someone with the authority to do so. . . or not.

No such authority is given to Wings.

But, in this case, we are uniform, it looks OK, is practical, and we don't look like a rag-tag collection of miscreants. On the negative side, we might be breaking a uniform reg.

My wife worked in a store where literally ALL the employees stole. Did that make it OK for her to do so as well?

Not as externally embarrasing as our showing at the AF Base in bizzare mufti, though. If we're technically off the reservation with the ball caps, but consistent with it wing-wide, I don't feel like I'm shirking too much by going along.

Your polo does not need a hat. So don't wear one breaking the regs, especially on a base.

I was a cadet. I wore the AF uniforms. Always struggled with my weight. It is something I can work on, but at the moment it is what it is. I wear BBDUs, and G/Ws. Do you think I don't want to wear what the cadets I work with wear? Of course I do, but until I'm within the weight standard I choose to abide by the regs. But NOTHING brings me down as much as seeing someone CLEARLY out of the weight standard wear the AF uniform. Most are good members, and good CP officers, but it is almost a slap in a face to guys like me who do follow the regs. How can they preach integrity to cadets when they themselves are NOT compliant and are aware of it? I'm a young guy. Besides my double chin my weight is quite evenly distributed. I'm between 240-250lbs  at 5'10", but no one ever thinks im over 220. I've been told, by prior service members that I should just wear the AF uniforms because I can pull it off, certainly better than others do. That's an integrity issue of course, but it shows the level of apathy CAP has towards the uniform regs. Those breaking the regs, as well as a lack of a full service dress for corp wearing members may not affect our missions, but it most certainly wears on morale and breeds some resentment for guys like me.

[Walkman]

I was a cadet. I wore the AF uniforms. Always struggled with my weight. It is something I can work on, but at the moment it is what it is. I wear BBDUs, and G/Ws. Do you think I don't want to wear what the cadets I work with wear? Of course I do, but until I'm within the weight standard I choose to abide by the regs. But NOTHING brings me down as much as seeing someone CLEARLY out of the weight standard wear the AF uniform. Most are good members, and good CP officers, but it is almost a slap in a face to guys like me who do follow the regs. How can they preach integrity to cadets when they themselves are NOT compliant and are aware of it? I'm a young guy. Besides my double chin my weight is quite evenly distributed. I'm between 240-250lbs  at 5'10", but no one ever thinks im over 220. I've been told, by prior service members that I should just wear the AF uniforms because I can pull it off, certainly better than others do. That's an integrity issue of course, but it shows the level of apathy CAP has towards the uniform regs. Those breaking the regs, as well as a lack of a full service dress for corp wearing members may not affect our missions, but it most certainly wears on morale and breeds some resentment for guys like me.

I'm with you all the way. I've gone over the H/W line at times, and when I do I wear my polo.

My hat's off to you for your integrity.

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, the commander can set a UOD, but how can he/she enforce it? In my unit, for example, not everyone has BDUs or BBDUs. Not everyone has AF-style service uniform or Aviator shirt/gray slack combo. We do have a published UOD for every week of the month, but on any given day you will see at least three types of uniforms being worn (AF-style, corporate equivalent, Golf shirt).

This is more than a command problem. In my mind, its part of the "I'm a volunteer, you're lucky I'm even here" mentality. I have the uniform to cover any UoD. Now, I didn't buy them all at once, I started with short sleeve blues and BDUs, but over the past years, I managed to get full service dress, a flight suit and polo combo.

I agree. I started with one set of BDUs and one set of short sleeve blues. Then I got a Golf shirt for SM meetings, as no one was wearing BDUs at the time. Now I have three full sets of BDUs, one full set of blues (including service dress coat), one flight suit and two Golf shirts. The amount of uniform combinations I have reflect my level of participation in multiple types and lengths of activities. In my units, most SM only buy the Golf shirt/gray pants combo (unless they work with cadets) and wear that uniform at every meeting or activity we have.

[Ned]

For the purposes of this discussion, it would be certainly interesting to actually know what percentage of seniors are actually precluded from wearing the AF style uniforms by reason of their size.  The H/W chart is Attachment 1 of CAPM 39-1.

Some here have estimated that as many as half or our seniors do not meet H/W.  Some have suggested that the percentage could even be higher.

I can't imagine how we might reasonably find the actual percentage, which would require weighing all of our seniors (or at least a statistically valid sample and extrapolating.)

But assuming our seniors are on par with the average American (IOW, there is nothing about CAP that makes us somehow either larger or smaller than average), then it seems clear to me that the "outside H/W group" represents a distinct minority of our membership.

I reached this conclusion by applying a BMI calculation to the male H/W chart, and finding that for each and every height listed on the chart, the corresponding weight yields a BMI over 30. (Low of 30.5, high of 34.)

I then simply checked the Wikipedia article on BMI and found that the average BMI for American males is 28.64, significantly lower than the "BMI  maximum" calculated from our H/W chart.

(Note, the use of BMI was just a convenient - yet accurate - way to compare the averages.  I am not using BMI as any sort of health measurement tool in this context.  It certainly has its critics.)



And of course, just concluding that "only a minority" of seniors cannot wear the AF style uniforms does not in any way suggest that our members wearing corporates do not require and deserve a professional uniform to assist them in the performance of their duties.  CAP was in fact largely founded to allow members who did not physically or otherwise qualfiy for service in the armed forces a critically important way to serve their country.

The only point here was to try to refine a data point for the ongoing discussion.