No More NCC

[a2capt]

Someone paraphrased what was said during the NCC awards and wrap up. 

It's Wikipedia ;-)

Yes, they're working on things..

[Eclipse]

I wish someone would publish something definitive, including what, if anything the expectations or limitations are
below National.

[a2capt]

I'll have to take a look at the video segments I have, I think I recorded it.

There was also a letter that circulated to at least the Wing level, directed at Command and Cadet Programs sections.

[Alderman]

This is why more units like ours should get involved in Drill Leagues hosted by JROTC units, I'm also a volunteer coach for a Army JROTC Drill Team in Oregon that took 4th place at the National High School Drill Competition in Daytona Beach, FL this last year.

Many JROTC units will form multi-branch leagues or participate in official service branch meets. Ie Army Cadet Command probably does the best, but our JROTC teams only get involved in the Cascade Mountains Drill League with 14+ JROTC units in Oregon and Washington that includes all services, mostly Army and Navy, little Air Force, and one Marine Corp program. We can only have our High school aged CAP cadets compete in this league, but we have very few CAP cadets in our unit that are middle or college age.

[Eclipse]

This is why more units like ours should get involved in Drill Leagues hosted by JROTC units, I'm also a volunteer coach for a Army JROTC Drill Team in Oregon that took 4th place at the National High School Drill Competition in Daytona Beach, FL this last year.

What, specifically, is the CAP-focused advantage of drill team, especially if it isn't even within CAP.  The expense and expectations or practice are simply not worth it.

Every unit should have a color guard, and I'd be in favor of some sort of wing-level CGC that stressed relevent skills over tailored uniforms and volleyball, but DT?  Why?

[Ron1319]

$130k in a corporate Fortune 500 budget is basically nothing.  I dropped a $50,000 prototype motherboard (on the floor) in my previous professional life as an engineer and took the pieces to my manager who laughed, pulled another one out of a box, and handed me another one.  He explained that was why they bought a few extras and to please not drop another one. 

I don't think the value can be determined based on an analysis of how many cadets the competition reaches directly.  Our entire group has benefited tremendously from the participation of our drill team 3 of the last 4 years at NCC.  What some seniors apparently view as an "elite," I see as a group of cadets who are pushing themselves and those around them to be better, to promote, and to get more out of the program.  It's how it played out in my cadet career, and it's how we have used the event here in the Sacramento area. 

It's sad to see that nobody was able to find real sponsorship dollars and fund the activity.  I would think that national could benefit greatly from hiring a full time well compensated person to go out and seek hundreds of thousands of dollars in corporate sponsorship for cadet events.  I would have thought that instead of announcing the demise that a request for assistance right after NCC 2013 in finding funding for NCC 2014 from sponsors would have been a better approach.

[Bluelakes 13]

It was left up to the lower echelons to decide whether to have a Cadet Competition or not.  Speaking with my colleagues in the other regions, and the report back from our Region commander from the boards, the recommendation was to continue the Competition up to the Region.  I verified with the other Wings that they were still intending to hold a Competition, and all Wings in the Region were unanimous. 

[NIN]

It's sad to see that nobody was able to find real sponsorship dollars and fund the activity.  I would think that national could benefit greatly from hiring a full time well compensated person to go out and seek hundreds of thousands of dollars in corporate sponsorship for cadet events.  I would have thought that instead of announcing the demise that a request for assistance right after NCC 2013 in finding funding for NCC 2014 from sponsors would have been a better approach.

Its not just the funding, although that is certainly the primary impetus.

$130,000 for the number of cadets affected has an ROI attached to it. CAP is not a Fortune 500 company, nor ever will be. It is a 501(c)(3).  $130,000 represents a significant chunk of the CP's budget.   It is not out of line for NHQ to hold up their hands and say "Whoa, hold up a minute here. Lets look at how we can do this better/cheaper/for more people/etc"



Monies spent in the execution of the mission(s) must be continually analyzed in terms of impact (nationwide, regionally, locally, number of members impacted, etc), scope, efficacy for the future, etc.

Can't drop a Surrogate Predator ball on the ramp due to poor mx or fat-fingers and have someone laugh and pull another out of the box and say "Don't play basketball with this one."

For a long time, a lot of CAP programs have continued on with lax budget discipline, no analysis of their ROI (tooth-to-tail), etc, because they were well-established programs or had "patrons in high places."   It is incumbent upon the organization in the modern era to continually examine what we're doing thru the lens of efficiency and economy rather than just doing it "the way we always have done it." ("If you do things the way you've always done them, you'll get the results you've always gotten.")

Could funding for NCC have come thru for 2014 (either thru corporate donations, in-kind donations, or solid fundraising)?  Probably.

However, do you raise funds to continue to run an activity that may no longer be fulfilling its originally intended mission (throwing "good money after bad") or do you look at ways to rejigger or replace that activity with one that may have a better long-term effect on the mission area than the one it is replacing?  Might it not be better to look at a different paradigm for NCC?  This requires people to have their sacred cows placed on the train tracks, which causes great angst.

[Eclipse]

The money and effort should be spent re-focusing the resources on >why< it's important, and then ramping up CGs in all the units
as a "less optional" idea.  Just dump the DT altogether until there's a critical mass of CGs who can at least carry a flag properly.

Having any competition simply to compete wastes everyone's time and winds up with no one in the room.

It's no different then people who think the way to fix ES is to have a SAR Comp.

Both ideas are 180 off.

[Bluelakes 13]

The purpose and the objectives of the Cadet Competition are clearly stated in 52-4, Chapter 1; hardly just an excuse to have a competition.

But as I stated before, my recommendation was to have it centrally and each team pays their own way there.  Then the debates of how much of CP's budget is spent on it are gone.  We can then get back to having fun!

[Ned]

But as I stated before, my recommendation was to have it centrally and each team pays their own way there.  Then the debates of how much of CP's budget is spent on it are gone.  We can then get back to having fun!

That is part of the problem, of course.  While I genuinely appreciate your service to CAP in general and CP in particular, folks who live in the middle of the country statistically tend to favor "having it centrally and each team pays their own way."

If the competition were to occur in Alaska or PR/USVI, some responses might be different.   

This is one of those CAP issues where the answer often lies in the eye of the beholder.  People with college degrees tend to think they should be required for CAP leadership.  Folks comfortably under the H/W requirements sincerely believe everyone else should meet them, too.  Members who live close to a AF clothing sales store don't seem to mind the markup that our vendor needs to charge for AF uniform items.  Hard charging operational types don't see a problem with the size of the CP budget. 

And so it goes . . .



(I'm assuming we would all volunteer to pay our own way if NCC was in Hawaii.  Hmmm, that may be the answer!)

[Eclipse]

The purpose and the objectives of the Cadet Competition are clearly stated in 52-4, Chapter 1; hardly just an excuse to have a competition.

This is the same as asking what the purpose of the CAC is and being quoted from the pamphlet.

Most units don't even think about CG, and especially DT, until the emails start floating around about competition, that makes it competing for competition's sake and is the reason interest is essentially zero in many wings - it distracts from normal operations and pull resources away from what CC's think is "important".

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

[a2capt]

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Chicken. Egg. Which first?

What if the competition spurs a unit to assemble a color guard or drill team, and they go and use that energy for something else in the community as a result of the item being brought to their attention.

If it takes the dangling carrot, and the result is the same, what's the problem?

[Eclipse]

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Chicken. Egg. Which first?

What if the competition spurs a unit to assemble a color guard or drill team, and they go and use that energy for something else in the community as a result of the item being brought to their attention.

If it takes the dangling carrot, and the result is the same, what's the problem?

The result has been, basically no one cares.

These types of things should stem from actual need and mission-related skills.  It's like anything else "the boss doesn't think it's important, so neither do I".

"Important" does not equal "thrown together at the last minute".

[Ron1319]

This is the same as asking what the purpose of the CAC is and being quoted from the pamphlet.

Most units don't even think about CG, and especially DT, until the emails start floating around about competition, that makes it competing for competition's sake and is the reason interest is essentially zero in many wings - it distracts from normal operations and pull resources away from what CC's think is "important".

Localized CG competition is fine, once units are doing them for more reason then just the competition.

Let's pretend three experienced seniors decide to join a back woods unit in a little secluded town up in the hills in California.  California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.  We're about as far away from Wing HQ as Ohio is from North Carolina.  We have to find a plan to grow the unit, expose them to the other units in the group, get them participating in the wing, encourage them to promote, and get them going to national activities.

Since we all participated in drill team when we were cadets, and understand just how important and motivating it is, we decide that drill team will be the path to get us there, and a very important part of the plan.  We are fortunate enough to have a great group of seniors around us, so we start training the senior cadets at the 10-ish person squadron, start recruiting and start growing the unit.  All the while, we're encouraging the other squadrons in the group to start thinking about drill team and finding out who the best cadets in the group are.  We manage to pull enough together to train a drill team.  We win at wing.  There is no other competition at region, mostly because the region is so spread out, and we go to NCC.  The cadets are highly motivated, dedicated, and focused on the goal.  They feel like they're competing for something greater.  Every one of them WANTS to go back the next year, but many of them can not.

The following year, we get about half of the team back, and go pull another 8 cadets or so from other units in the group.  The top cadets in their squadrons.  They focus, try hard, and are around all of the other cadets in their squadrons.  Some of them are sacrificing to be there.  Some of them get up early on Saturday mornings and drive 2-3 hours to meet in the most viable central location.  Most of them attend almost all of the practices.  We go back to NCC and win in standard drill and take a nice solid third place finish. 

That's enough of the story to illustrate the point.  Drill team is not at all about the people who go to the competition directly.  It's about all of the people who those top cadets in the group go back and influence in their units.  It's about those cadets pushing each other and pushing those around them to promote and be better in CAP. 

The results for us?  When we started there were perhaps two cadets in the group who were cadet officers.  We fielded a team last year with only 3 NCOs.  We have two Spaatzen who have been to NCC, and we have two C/LtCs who have been to NCC who are testing.  We have many more cadet officers in the squadron and the group who have never been to NCC who have been mentored and pushed and encouraged and grown by those who have. 

Could we have done it another way?  Maybe.  I don't know what that method would have looked like or how we could have gotten those cadets to commit to spending that much time with one another to make it happen in a group that is as large as many wings.  I believe that we are talking about the equivalent of cadets driving from Dayton and Cincinnati and Cleveland to meet in Columbus for drill team practices a couple of times a month for 5-6 months to prepare.  We aren't talking about CA wing, just our group around Sacramento. 

I know how much my drill team experience was valuable to me as a cadet and how much I grew from it.  I know how much it has been valuable to our cadets who have gone.  I know how valuable it is to those cadets in the group who have learned from those who have gone. 

Should I have had to wait until every unit in the group was participating in a color guard competition before being able to field an NCC team?  We are clearly coming from much different places.  We're supposed to grow leaders.  We are supposed to grow Phase IV cadets to lead.  We are supposed to grow units.  We are supposed to encourage cadets to make friends from other units and build memories that they will remember for the rest of their lives. 

Whoever wrote this knew what they were talking about, and it's sad that you don't understand it and that national doesn't understand it enough to fight for it and find a way to continue the program uninterrupted:

a. Purposes of the National Cadet Competition (NCC).
(1) To provide incentive and motivation for cadets to train and attain goals in leadership,
aerospace education, physical fitness and teamwork.
(2) To provide an opportunity for cadets to increase esprit de corps through excellence in
training and performance.
(3) To provide a public validation of the objectives of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Cadet
Program.

I will share one last story.  One of our cadets from last year started off the season not being able to run a mile.  His form was bad, his core strength was bad, his motivation was poor at best to run.  He felt he was really bad at it and didn't have any direction as to why.  We taught him.  He ran several times a week.  He ran a very respectable mile at NCC, and has continued to run on his own time.

Disassembling it, or even postponing it for a year, means that we get to start all over again if the competition comes back in the future.  We have no real opportunity for a real wing or region competition.  The wing and the region are simply too big.  We work for NCC.  Color guard is of no use to us for our objectives because we do not want to grow C/CMSgts.  We want to grow Cadet Colonels.

[Eclipse]

I fail to see how something which distracts so much from the core mission and activities of CAP, like DT, is an overall advantage to anything
but the DT itself.

Run like the pamphlets, with invested, mature adults, limitations on practice time and expenses, and participated in by cadets who
are expected to treat DT like an extracurricular activity, one can certainly see why and how people would enjoy it and see it's value.

I can only say that my experience, as a commander who had to deal with the negative consequences of an improperly run "program",
is that the risks of letting it run unfettered are too high, and the activities too far off the normal CAP mark to be disappointed to see it paused.

[Ron1319]

Then it's a shame that CAPtalk appears to lack a block button.

[SamFranklin]

Whoever wrote this knew what they were talking about, and it's sad that you don't understand it and that national doesn't understand it enough to fight for it and find a way to continue the program uninterrupted:

a. Purposes of the National Cadet Competition (NCC).
(1) To provide incentive and motivation for cadets to train and attain goals in leadership,
aerospace education, physical fitness and teamwork.
(2) To provide an opportunity for cadets to increase esprit de corps through excellence in
training and performance.
(3) To provide a public validation of the objectives of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Cadet
Program.

Didn't the same people who wrote that great statement of purpose come up with the idea of pausing the NCC? I agree with Darin's remark. We have some good purposes here, no one doubts that, but the program is stagnant and irrelevant to 80% of units, so let's go back to the drawing board. Your remark above is contradictory for that reason.

[NIN]

Disassembling it, or even postponing it for a year, means that we get to start all over again if the competition comes back in the future.  We have no real opportunity for a real wing or region competition.  The wing and the region are simply too big.  We work for NCC.  Color guard is of no use to us for our objectives because we do not want to grow C/CMSgts.  We want to grow Cadet Colonels.

Is your Group/Wing/Region still conducting a Group/Wing/Region competition cycle for 2014?

If your wing and region are "simply too big," then how big, exactly, is the National Competition?

National HQ suspending NCC for a year to re-evaluate, re-assess and make changes to the program for 2015 in no way prohibits your region, wing or group from continuing to hold competitions as they have in the past.  All that changes is that you don't have to travel to Maxwell/Dayton/McMinville/wherever in 2014.

[a2capt]

Let's pretend three experienced seniors decide to join a back woods unit in a little secluded town up in the hills in California.  California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California. 

I don't know..  if I'd agree with that statement.

.. that it being "especially" the northern section.