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Author Topic: Favorite Cadet Quotes  (Read 33130 times)
Panache
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,060
Unit: PAWG

« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2014, 06:44:18 AM »

Senior Members, relax!

Let those cadets have their fun. They were playing, we know. Do not chastise them for their fun... Drill by adults is a very serious business. Another difference is the yelling. Did you hear your Drill Instructors go FLIGHT ATTENTION! at the top of their lungs sounding like they are using a loudspeaker? Nein, nyet, no! But you do hear cadets all the time yelling as if they are using an amplifier when there is no other thing going on...

Flyer

Exactly what I was thinking.  It's kids being... well, kids.  Let them enjoy their childhood.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 859
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2014, 02:03:43 AM »

Senior Members, relax!

Let those cadets have their fun. They were playing, we know. Do not chastise them for their fun... Drill by adults is a very serious business. Another difference is the yelling. Did you hear your Drill Instructors go FLIGHT ATTENTION! at the top of their lungs sounding like they are using a loudspeaker? Nein, nyet, no! But you do hear cadets all the time yelling as if they are using an amplifier when there is no other thing going on...

Flyer


Exactly what I was thinking.  It's kids being... well, kids.  Let them enjoy their childhood.

That is a very simple way of looking at something that isn't so simple. You're looking at it as what it is, when it is. I'm looking at what it will develop into.

Cadets get their foundation at the local level. Lots to do, not much time, all in pieces based on their level in the program. Then comes encampment.

Suddenly, they are in a fast-paced environment with lots of time, being led by people with varied experience levels who come from all over. Maybe the highest ranking cadet at their local unit is a C/SSgt - but encampment is crawling with C/MSgts and C/Capts, with glimpses of C/Majs and even a C/Col. In other words, lots of cadets with way more experience, who must know their stuff, right?

Encampment provides an environment where "15-second showers" can happen, along with the aforementioned tailbone smashers and "bearing busters." As has been pointed out, they're kids. It's fun. So, why stop them?

Because none of that is relevant to the program and can definitely counter what the program is trying to do. Suppose 20 cadets had fun with "bearing busters" and 3-4 cadets had fun administering them. But what about the 1,3 or 5 cadets who went home saying "I don't need this €r@% in my life?" Or the kid who goes home with a bruised tailbone and decides he doesn't want to go back to the local unit?

Another outfall of this stuff has already been mentioned - the local level undoing of mis-designated "time honored encampment traditions." But there's at least one more - parental reaction. Especially parental reaction by parents who have been in the service or even who may have themselves been cadets. When Cadet Timmy comes home with his tales of being subjected to these "time honored traditions" and Dad calls up for an explanation, is "It's kids being....well, kids. Let them enjoy their childhood" really supposed to be our explanation?

I was a cadet for 6 years. Believe me, I had fun. Believe me, I think our cadets now do have and should have fun. But I was blessed with having Seniors around who were savvy enough to draw lines and stop things when necessary. I remain convinced that such needs to happen in the present day, lest it turn into a haphazard collection of made-up "time honored traditions" that serve no legitimate purpose.
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,846
Unit: Earth

« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2014, 02:22:32 AM »

I had a discussion with a C/CMSgt a couple weeks ago about this thing where the cadets doing PT went from a standing position to sitting on their butts in basically an uncontrolled freefall to the ground. Did I mention it was a concrete floor?  Yeah, when told that this sort of thing needed to end lest someone break their tailbone in the process, I was told "But sir, its tradition."

Due to the lack of details, there may be a benefit to this.  There are plenty of aerobic conditioning exercises which have similar moves of quickly moving from one position to the next.  Now on concrete is an ORM issue.  However, "tradition" was not the appropriate answer though.

Since I do not know the circumstances, I am just offering a possible interpretation of your story.

However, the use of "tradition" is usually an annoyance for me when I get upset about guidon stealing, as previously mentioned in one of these encampment threads.
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Walkman
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,233
Unit: GLR-MI-009

Kris Walker Photography
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2014, 10:01:11 AM »

Both units (UTWG & MIWG) I've been in have done these "bearing contests" from time to time. I always thought it was just a fun way to work on keeping a solid military bearing in formation. It usually takes up no more than 5 minutes or so. I've even participated here and there. I got one very stonefaced cadet to crack up once by staring him down and then saying "Oh Phooey" in my best Donald Duck voice.

I see your points about its overall relevance. But if its something done from time to time, I don't have ahuge problem with it. Every once in a while, I think its good to introduce a little fun into a meeting.
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talldude
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: GLR-OH

« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2014, 03:35:48 PM »

USAF Honor Guard - Rubber Chicken Bearing Test

It's a legitimate practice (in the AF at least), and a time honored CAP tradition to get cadets to fall out of formation in bearing tests.

Let me make this nice and clear: Honor Guards in CAP are not the USAF Honor Guard.  They're not the Old Guard. They're not the USMC silent drill team.

Just because the USAF honor guard does something is pretty much absolutely no reason for CAP honor guards to do it.

Its not a "time honored tradition." Its stupid.  Its idiotic. Its dumb.

There, I said it.

I had a discussion with a C/CMSgt a couple weeks ago about this thing where the cadets doing PT went from a standing position to sitting on their butts in basically an uncontrolled freefall to the ground. Did I mention it was a concrete floor?  Yeah, when told that this sort of thing needed to end lest someone break their tailbone in the process, I was told "But sir, its tradition."

Doing something that stupid for no apparent reason is NOT a "tradition." 

Someone acts the fool in front of others to get them to laugh. That's a "tradition?"  Sounds like someone else may have lost his or her military bearing in the process.

How/why is this game stupid?

I don't think I have ever heard of any one getting hurt in a bearing game..   

How could this game injure someone?  If feelings get hurt by them getting called out for breaking bearing, I can only imagine how this "hurt" person would feel and at an encampment or some other tough training environment..

I also see how falling onto your tailbone is dangerous and that some cadet may leave and not come back.. But like I said - If feelings get hurt by them getting called out for breaking bearing, I can only imagine how "hurt" this person would feel and at an encampment or some other tough training environment..

I am not saying that this game is great, I am just saying I don't think that was the most logical argument...
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C/2d Lt TallDude..
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #85 on: February 06, 2014, 04:28:12 PM »

Senior Members, relax!

Let those cadets have their fun. They were playing, we know. Do not chastise them for their fun... Drill by adults is a very serious business. Another difference is the yelling. Did you hear your Drill Instructors go FLIGHT ATTENTION! at the top of their lungs sounding like they are using a loudspeaker? Nein, nyet, no! But you do hear cadets all the time yelling as if they are using an amplifier when there is no other thing going on...

Flyer

Exactly what I was thinking.  It's kids being... well, kids.  Let them enjoy their childhood.

No, it's cadets acting like children, there's a big difference.

They have plenty of time for "childhood", whatever that means for a 12-18 year old these days. when they are at home.
The joined CAP to be more then that, and CAP expects it.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #86 on: February 06, 2014, 04:32:22 PM »

How/why is this game stupid?

Hmm...for starters, it's unnecessary, unprofessional, and impacts our appearance and reputation to anyone within ear and eyeshot.
Those same Honor Guardsman will be giving themselves mental credit for being in the "top %" of their peers and purporting to
represent CAP's highest and most solemn example, while at the same time acting like goobers.

I don't think I have ever heard of any one getting hurt in a bearing game..

Is that the bar of a good idea these days?  No one gets hurt?
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NIN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,018
Unit: of issue

« Reply #87 on: February 06, 2014, 04:32:34 PM »

How/why is this game stupid?

Its easy. I even said it. You quoted me:

Quote
Someone acts the fool in front of others to get them to laugh.

That my definition of stupid.

Losing your military bearing in an attempt to get someone else to lose theirs?

Quote
I don't think I have ever heard of any one getting hurt in a bearing game..   

How could this game injure someone?

Nobody is talking about physical injury WRT to the "bearing game." I'm talking about abject loss of your credibility.

Quote
I am not saying that this game is great, I am just saying I don't think that was the most logical argument...

Here, let me give you some logic.

Military bearing is subjective.  What I feel is an appropriate bearing is probably not what 2Lt Noob thinks is appropriate, and is probably not what C/Capt Heighspeed thinks is appropriate.

Unfortunately, there is one of those XKCD-style graphs that should be drawn showing an inverse relationship between "experience" and "lack of military knowledge."

I frequently hear from cadets with 1-2 years in the program about how things aren't "military enough."

Wait, what? "Military enough? Please define."

And the definition usually involves a movie (ie. Full Metal Jacket) or something they read, or something they heard.

I've been around the block a time or two (coming up on 33 years in a uniform in May), and I'm sure I even made some silly statements like that WIWAC.

But since then, I spent 10 years Army enlisted, 21 years as a CAP senior, 7 years as an officer in the Army Cadet Corps, an most of the last 12 months back in a CAP senior member uniform. 

I *might* be in a position to suggest that I have *some* knowledge of when things are "sufficiently military."

And "bearing checks" and "bearing games" are usually "not it."

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
NIN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,018
Unit: of issue

« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2014, 04:44:55 PM »

Due to the lack of details, there may be a benefit to this.  There are plenty of aerobic conditioning exercises which have similar moves of quickly moving from one position to the next.  Now on concrete is an ORM issue.  However, "tradition" was not the appropriate answer though.

Since I do not know the circumstances, I am just offering a possible interpretation of your story.

However, the use of "tradition" is usually an annoyance for me when I get upset about guidon stealing, as previously mentioned in one of these encampment threads.

Yeah, no, there was no benefit to this. They're standing upright stretching, someone barks "down" and its a race to see who is the last person standing (this was an old encampment thing back WIWAC.  Everybody standing at attention in the base theater, on the command "Seats!" nobody wanted to be the last flight to be sitting. But the base theater had padded seats)  No exercise benefit: just your butt hurtling towards the hard concrete.

It was a busted tailbone CAPF 78 just waiting for a date.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2014, 04:49:13 PM »

I'm talking about abject loss of your credibility.

Easily lost and difficult to regain.
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Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,680

« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2014, 07:45:37 PM »

I had a discussion with a C/CMSgt a couple weeks ago about this thing where the cadets doing PT went from a standing position to sitting on their butts in basically an uncontrolled freefall to the ground. Did I mention it was a concrete floor?  Yeah, when told that this sort of thing needed to end lest someone break their tailbone in the process, I was told "But sir, its tradition."

Due to the lack of details, there may be a benefit to this.  There are plenty of aerobic conditioning exercises which have similar moves of quickly moving from one position to the next.  Now on concrete is an ORM issue.  However, "tradition" was not the appropriate answer though.

Since I do not know the circumstances, I am just offering a possible interpretation of your story.

However, the use of "tradition" is usually an annoyance for me when I get upset about guidon stealing, as previously mentioned in one of these encampment threads.

I think enough details were provided. The activity was unsafe. A senior member put a stop to it. The cadet in charge tried to justify it. What's left to interpret here?

Exercise is a good thing if done properly. Otherwise, it can become a potential hazard. The problem with cadets (I've worked with them for many years and used to be one myself) is that they don't always use common sense or good judgement when partaking in these types of activities. Then again, that applies to some senior members as well.

We want the cadets to learn, grow and have fun doing it. But allowing cadets to potentially get injured, especially when avoidable, should never be part of the equation.
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Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,680

« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2014, 07:46:35 PM »

Duplicate post. Moderators, please delete.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,846
Unit: Earth

« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2014, 10:19:14 PM »

Yeah, no, there was no benefit to this. They're standing upright stretching, someone barks "down" and its a race to see who is the last person standing (this was an old encampment thing back WIWAC.  Everybody standing at attention in the base theater, on the command "Seats!" nobody wanted to be the last flight to be sitting. But the base theater had padded seats)  No exercise benefit: just your butt hurtling towards the hard concrete.

It was a busted tailbone CAPF 78 just waiting for a date.

Thanks.  From your follow-up details, it is clear that they were not doing an aerobic exercise such as a "front-back-go" or similar calisthenic with the purpose of instructing, demonstrating, or conditioning.  Rather yes it was goofing off.

Exercise is a good thing if done properly. Otherwise, it can become a potential hazard. The problem with cadets (I've worked with them for many years and used to be one myself) is that they don't always use common sense or good judgement when partaking in these types of activities. Then again, that applies to some senior members as well.

Yes.  All of which I summarized saying that it could be an ORM issue.  Had the cadet been doing an aerobic exercise, the issue would have been he did not perform the proper risk assessment and take the proper risk controls as evidenced by doing it on concrete.  However, from NIN's follow-up details, it is pretty clear he was not performing an exercise, but rather screwing around during stretching.  Thereby it clearly was not an ORM issue, but rather a lack of judgement.  The "down" command clearly has no benefit or exercise purpose.

Quote
But allowing cadets to potentially get injured, especially when avoidable, should never be part of the equation.

Unless the proper risk assessment is conducted and appropriate controls taken.  Playing a game of volleyball, for example, may have a moderate potential of risk (depending on how you assess the activity).  However, you can mitigate the risk by ensuring cadets wear knee pads, discourage diving and sliding, and if possible playing on a softer surface (which may have its own risks if playing on sand for example).
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Panache
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,060
Unit: PAWG

« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2014, 01:04:55 AM »

Senior Members, relax!

Let those cadets have their fun. They were playing, we know. Do not chastise them for their fun... Drill by adults is a very serious business. Another difference is the yelling. Did you hear your Drill Instructors go FLIGHT ATTENTION! at the top of their lungs sounding like they are using a loudspeaker? Nein, nyet, no! But you do hear cadets all the time yelling as if they are using an amplifier when there is no other thing going on...

Flyer

Exactly what I was thinking.  It's kids being... well, kids.  Let them enjoy their childhood.

No, it's cadets acting like children, there's a big difference.

They have plenty of time for "childhood", whatever that means for a 12-18 year old these days. when they are at home.
The joined CAP to be more then that, and CAP expects it.

But they still are children, whether you like it or not.  Expecting them to be "all business, all the time" is not realistic nor healthy.

Heck, even active-duty RealMilitary™ members, both Enlisted and Officer, are allowed to occasionally blow off steam and be goofy.
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talldude
Recruit

Posts: 32
Unit: GLR-OH

« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2014, 01:46:02 AM »

I agree.. :)
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C/2d Lt TallDude..
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2014, 09:59:33 AM »

But they still are children, whether you like it or not.  Expecting them to be "all business, all the time" is not realistic nor healthy.

No one is.  We're expecting them to comport themselves like cadets for 2-3 hours a week they come to a meeting or an activity.
A meeting or activity they voluntarily joined, specifically in prt to participate in the discipline and structure of something
large then themselves, and that goes double for Honor Guardsman.

Heck, even active-duty RealMilitary™ members, both Enlisted and Officer, are allowed to occasionally blow off steam and be goofy.

CAP cadets don't have "steam" to blow off.  Where does this idea come from?
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Panache
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,060
Unit: PAWG

« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2014, 11:59:11 AM »

CAP cadets don't have "steam" to blow off.  Where does this idea come from?

Are you implying children don't have stress in their lives?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2014, 12:06:48 PM »

CAP cadets don't have "steam" to blow off.  Where does this idea come from?

Are you implying children don't have stress in their lives?

No, I'm saying that kids come to CAP as a stress reliever and change from their normal universe
of less structure and discipline.   They literally join, in part, for the very things that some misguided
commanders act like is "too much".

The don't want to show up to an environment where the adults act like children, and treat the cadets
in the same way.  The want to participate in an environment where things are taken seriously, the
expectations are heightened, and people get some work done.

That doesn't mean people can't enjoy themselves. but the enjoyment should come from the accomplishment
and team environment and leave any acting like  goober for non-public, non-uniformed, after hours situations.

You can't compare a cadets 2-hour a week, or even encampment experience to the military, not even a little.
And even our most "hard-core" experiences like NESA, HMRS, or PJOC, end before they ever get close to
being oppressive or stressful for the average cadet in the way being implied.



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Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,680

« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2014, 12:23:37 PM »


CAP cadets don't have "steam" to blow off.  Where does this idea come from?

Are you implying children don't have stress in their lives?

No, I'm saying that kids come to CAP as a stress reliever and change from their normal universe
of less structure and discipline.   They literally join, in part, for the very things that some misguided
commanders act like is "too much".

The don't want to show up to an environment where the adults act like children, and treat the cadets
in the same way.  The want to participate in an environment where things are taken seriously, the
expectations are heightened, and people get some work done.

That doesn't mean people can't enjoy themselves. but the enjoyment should come from the accomplishment
and team environment and leave any acting like  goober for non-public, non-uniformed, after hours situations.

You can't compare a cadets 2-hour a week, or even encampment experience to the military, not even a little.
And even our most "hard-core" experiences like NESA, HMRS, or PJOC, end before they ever get close to
being oppressive or stressful for the average cadet in the way being implied.

I hate to say this, but I agree with Eclipse. I've experienced this both as a cadet and as an adult leader.
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nmkaufman0
Recruit

Posts: 24
Unit: SWR-TX-295

« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2014, 10:24:17 PM »

Apologies for my recent bad spelling... I was using my cell phone to type.
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C/A1C Nathaniel Mark Kaufman
Thunderbolt Composite Squadron
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Favorite Cadet Quotes
 


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