Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[flapsUP]

U.S.Civil Air Patrol looks a lot more official and professional than just Civil Air Patrol.  I think it's a great idea. We are a unified nationwide force established by the federal government. The U.S. in front of the name brings it all together. 

What's the story behind this? Was Iowa pushing this?

[SKYKING607]

Manufacturer of the Green "utes" is still in business.  The "utes" are made for other foreign nations.  They are still produced, let's return to the days of old!

[Hawk200]

Manufacturer of the Green "utes" is still in business.  The "utes" are made for other foreign nations.  They are still produced, let's return to the days of old!

Which ones are you talking about? The jungle fatigue (which is basically an OG precursor to the BDU) or are you talking about the two pocket shirt/ four pocket pants variety?

I could go for the jungle fatigue type. There's plenty of pockets for all the stuff I carry while in uniform. Don't like the old Air Force fatigue style, don't like tucking, and really don't like the neck and sleeve measurement fitting.

And the blue tapes on the old jungle fatigue actually looked good.

[A.Member]

Then there's always the question, "who's going to pay?"  Guess what.  The cost to redesign everything will be passed on to the member.   Why do we insist on making the price of membership so expensive?  Just to look military?

And that's what a lot of this comes down to...they hit the members (volunteers) in the pocketbook with a seemingly endless list of changes (non of which seem to be asked for by the members). 

But an even harder pill for many to swallow is having to make such changes when they seemingly move us to a position of less military association.

[lordmonar]

Then there's always the question, "who's going to pay?"  Guess what.  The cost to redesign everything will be passed on to the member.   Why do we insist on making the price of membership so expensive?  Just to look military?

And that's what a lot of this comes down to...they hit the members (volunteers) in the pocketbook with a seemingly endless list of changes (non of which seem to be asked for by the members). 

But an even harder pill for many to swallow is having to make such changes when they seemingly move us to a position of less military association.

With just this change...how can that in anyway be considered a move away from the military?

Adding the U.S. to Civil Air Patrol actually makes us more U.S. military.  As I look down on my Left Breast I see the words U.S. Air Force...not just "Air Force".  Every other service all has U.S. on them.

As far as the other changes...again....I can't see them as moveing us away from the military.  The TPU is a more military version of the corporates.  Name single recent change to the uniforms that is move away from the military.

[A.Member]

With just this change...how can that in anyway be considered a move away from the military?

It doesn't (this particular change is just silly and unnecessary). 

But I wasn't referring to this one change alone.  Nothing occurs in a vaccuum.  It's the culmination of changes.  Examples include change of the MAJCOM to completely remove any reference to "United States Air Force Auxiliary" (even the previous "seal" patch referenced this) and the push with the TPUs (which I believe will be pushed to replace blues altogether).  Then combined these with the removal of USAF AUX from aircraft and vehicles.  Of course, there are also the other silly changes that just seem to be made for no real apparent reason - ex. flag on BDUs.

Opinions differ but I see these as moves that collectively further separate us from USAF while at the same time inflicting further out of pocket expenses on our volunteers. 

[RiverAux]

Every other service all has U.S. on them.

And they are military services, we are are not. 

Then combined these with the removal of USAF AUX from aircraft and vehicles.

Well, the removal of USAF Aux from the aircraft (which actually still isn't a regulation even though its been speculated on for quite a while), was prompted by the Air Force and wasn't CAP's idea. 

[brasda91]

Great. Make the name tapes even longer. They barely fit over the pocket now

and the cost of having to purchase the new ones!!

[lordmonar]

Every other service all has U.S. on them.

And they are military services, we are are not. 

The statment was that the uniform change was trying to move us away from the military...so you sort of illustrait my point.

Then combined these with the removal of USAF AUX from aircraft and vehicles.

Well, the removal of USAF Aux from the aircraft (which actually still isn't a regulation even though its been speculated on for quite a while), was prompted by the Air Force and wasn't CAP's idea. 

Regulation or not...it is policy.  NV wing just pushed it down to the squadrons not but 2 weeks ago (we just had or regional conference a few weeks ago so I am assuming it was pushed down from there).

[DNall]

Well, the removal of USAF Aux from the aircraft (which actually still isn't a regulation even though its been speculated on for quite a while), was prompted by the Air Force and wasn't CAP's idea. 

That's not the case. AF didn't tell them to take it off, not that I've heard. What I have heard is this... (and that doesn't mean it's 100% accurate)

When they set up the border flying test case a while back they intended to use on board NVGs & a thermal thing they've been working on a for a while to spot alien traffic & report it directly to border patrol - ie a LE mission. They were told that's not allowed while it says USAF on the side of their plane. They meant figuratively you belong to the AF so you can't do that, not literally that it matters what it says on the plane. Guard helos participate in some LE missions & it says US Army clear as can be. The AFI that controls use of "USAF Aux" on the planes isn't a further restriction, it's just spelling out the conditions of PCA that apply all the time. Not everyone wants to accept that when they are on the eternal search for loop holes though. Of course there's debate on the subject, but rather than sitting down with the parties (Congress if necessary) & figuring out a clear decisive answer that we are bound by from here on out, the decision has been taken to spend money squirming around hoping for latitude. That's irresponsible.

I don't want to side track the discussion, I just mention the above cause this change with the branch tapes seems very much like the same thing, a squirmy move that costs money & frustrates members w/o good justification when MUCH more effective non-envasive moves exist to accomplish the purpose. Frankly, if the AF said right now we could go to white lettering on subdued tapes, I'd love that, but I'd think about it real hard. I'd want to know when we'd be going over to ABUs & if we could make the move at the same time, or if I really need to make the move now so I can set a precedent for what we'd wear on ABUs (note ABUs have digi-tapes, so OD is distinctive).

[RiverAux]

The AF implemented a regulation that put limitations on using CAP planes with USAF Aux on them in certain missions.....CAP is obviously reacting to that by wanting to take those markings off. 

[FARRIER]

What is the regulation?

[Psicorp]

When they set up the border flying test case a while back they intended to use on board NVGs & a thermal thing they've been working on a for a while to spot alien traffic & report it directly to border patrol - ie a LE mission.

Great, now we're looking for aliens.  Any chance us Comm guys can earn a SETI badge?

[A.Member]

When they set up the border flying test case a while back they intended to use on board NVGs & a thermal thing they've been working on a for a while to spot alien traffic & report it directly to border patrol - ie a LE mission.

Great, now we're looking for aliens.  Any chance us Comm guys can earn a SETI badge?

Yeah, you joke now... 

[DrJbdm]

Ok, I have a question. How close are we to actually having this implemented? Is it something that's GOING to happen or is it something that MIGHT happen within a couple of years IF AF approves it? What's the current time frame to have AF approve a uniform item?

  For the record, I'm not against the proposed change, I think U.S. Civil Air Patrol looks alot more professional and lends some credibility to us, and we ALL know we are hurting bad for credibility.

  I personally would love it if our BDU's read USAF Aux or U.S. Air Force Aux. AND they got rid of the ugly and clownish Ultramarine blue. After all, we're only going to be taken as serious as our image presents us to be, and Ultramarine blue is not a professional image! Makes us look like a boy scout group.

[FARRIER]

The AF implemented a regulation that put limitations on using CAP planes with USAF Aux on them in certain missions.....CAP is obviously reacting to that by wanting to take those markings off. 

What is the regulation? 

[DNall]

The AF implemented a regulation that put limitations on using CAP planes with USAF Aux on them in certain missions.....CAP is obviously reacting to that by wanting to take those markings off. 

Again, the reg just spells out PCA, which applies with or without the markings. The change is more about the appearance of inpropriety, and frankly pushing our AF affiliation under the rug when it doesn't serve our purpose. Most people would tell you if that's the case then we shouldn't be doing it anyway.

Great, now we're looking for aliens.  Any chance us Comm guys can earn a SETI badge?

You comm guys are pretty alien yourself, somebody get me my NVGs & get ready with the net, we might bag us one yet. 

What's the current time frame to have AF approve a uniform item?

As fast or as slow as they want. AU staff does a pro/con review & recomendation, AU CC approval, AETC staff, AETC CC, and that is those general officers personally signing on it. Which they are busy with more important things & get frustrated with ten thousand changes a year. It can be a few months to a year. Honestly I don't think they plan on asking though, I bet they forget to do that & it just shows up in regs. Wait till you have it on paper authorizing you to do it, then order away (and not from vanguard).

What is the regulation? 

AFI 10-2701

2.8. Restrictions on CAP Corporate Activities. Notwithstanding any DoD or Air Force regulation,policy or agreement, the following specific restrictions apply to CAP's corporate activities.
2.8.1. Air Force Markings. CAP Corporation may not use aircraft and resources that are marked with "USAF," "USAF Auxiliary," "US Air Force," or similar identifiers to engage in the law enforcement activities listed in paragraph 2.2.3. of this instruction and its subparagraphs, without prior approval by USAF/XO.
2.8.2. Intelligence Activities. CAP is not an intelligence organization, has no assigned intelligence mission, and will not engage in intelligence activities.
2.8.3. Consistent with paragraphs 1.4.3. and 1.4.4., CAP will obtain the reviews described in paragraphs 1.9.4. and 1.9.5. and resolve any aspects disapproved prior to execution of the respective documents.

2.2.3. Support to Law Enforcement. CAP may be assigned to respond to requests for assistance submitted to the Air Force by civilian law enforcement agencies. All such requests will be reviewed for compliance with applicable laws and regulations, including 10 USC Chapter 18, the Posse Comitatus Act, DoDD 5525.5, and AFI 10-801 by the appropriate Air Force authority (under Table 2.1.) in coordination with its legal staff and will not be approved unless they comply. Examples of typical law enforcement support may include aerial reconnaissance, transportation of law enforcement personnel,
and operation of equipment in order to facilitate communications.
2.2.3.1. Counter Drug Activities. AFAMs may include limited counter-drug missions as authorized by Section 1004 of the Fiscal Year (FY) 1991 National Defense Authorization Act as amended and restated in FY 2002.
2.2.3.2. Prohibited Activities. CAP will not participate in the interdiction of vehicles, vessels, or aircraft or in a search, seizure, arrest, apprehension, surveillance, pursuit, or similar activity.

[RogueLeader]

After all, we're only going to be taken as serious as our image presents us to be, and Ultramarine blue is not a professional image! Makes us look like a boy scout group.

The reason for the ultramarine Blue was to ensure that we are not mistaken to be Air Force, or any other military unit for that matter.  Just out of curiosity, what color do you think that would be both distinctive to CAP and proffesional?

[DNall]

Actually it's ultramarine blue cause they were exactly the same color as AF tapes before BDUs came along. They didn't approve a switch at that time for a few reasons, not least of which was being pissed at us over some issue or another - as far as I've been told anyway.

I think most people would be happy with a dark blue that matches BBDUs. However white lettering on OD tapes would be the best. The lettering still makes it clearly distinctive, and with the switch to ABUs they'll be using camo-tapes making OD tapes on those very distinctive. You cna argue viability, but no plane or hunter can see blue tapes at a distance, that's what the vests are for.

[Pylon]

After all, we're only going to be taken as serious as our image presents us to be, and Ultramarine blue is not a professional image! Makes us look like a boy scout group.

The reason for the ultramarine Blue was to ensure that we are not mistaken to be Air Force, or any other military unit for that matter.  Just out of curiosity, what color do you think that would be both distinctive to CAP and proffesional?

White on Dark blue, like the BBDU grade insignia shade, for the tapes would be worlds better.  I don't advocate for subdued anything -- we're not military, as much as we want to think so.

The ultramarine blue is garish.  But I think white lettering on dark blue tapes is still completely distinctive from anything military, but leaves us looking more professional in the end.

I hate uniform changes, but this is one of the few I'd advocate for so long as there was about a 3-year phase-in period.  People could slowly replace tapes on BDU tops as needed, so long as name and branch tape matched in shade.

Oh, and Vanguard needs to drop prices on their nametapes like a bad habit.  I don't order from them -- I use another supplier ($1 a tape, no minimum per name or per order, $1.50 shipping), but lots of CAP members are getting ripped off by Vanguard for those and that is a shame.