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New CAPR 35-2 Dec 2012

Started by Eclipse, December 27, 2012, 10:09:19 PM

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Eclipse

Revised in its entirety.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R035_002_1DCAA138A96F9.pdf

I don't understand why Form 60's are still in use.  The information should be in eServices, or for special activities
on the application form.  Having physical Form 60's is a much higher PII risk then having it online for a select group of staff.
Most adults these days simply refuse to put any medical information on them.

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Concur with your comments.

The information should be accessible by Unit Commanders, Safety Officers, perhaps a few other select officers, as well as ICs and MSOs.

Every access of the data should trigger an e-mail alert to the member that their medical information has been accessed, and by whom.

krnlpanick

If you are on a Ground Team, and something happens to one of the members on your team I think it is pretty important that they have a CAPF 60 on their person. I require the cadets to have 2 copies any time they participate in a CAP activity even a normal meeting. One copy goes to the OIC and the other stays in their right chest pocket. Even if we are at our normal meeting space, I don't want to have to wait for someone to log in to eServices to find out what his allergies and pre-existing medical conditions are. That being said, having a standard policy in place for destruction of CAPF 60s at the close of an activity would be a good thing. Either return the copy to the member or dispose of it securely (not throwing them in a public wastebasket at wherever the ICP happens to be).
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: krnlpanick on December 27, 2012, 11:01:29 PM
If you are on a Ground Team, and something happens to one of the members on your team I think it is pretty important that they have a CAPF 60 on their person.

Why?

If the member is conscious, they can answer any questions necessary, if not, are you going to dig for a 60 so you can call mom
instead of EMS?

And once they are transported, or worse, then the Wing CC or others can make the notifications. 

And as to medical issues, how accurate is the info on a 60 going to be?  And what if its blank?

"That Others May Zoom"

krnlpanick

Quote from: Eclipse on December 27, 2012, 11:06:31 PM
Quote from: krnlpanick on December 27, 2012, 11:01:29 PM
If you are on a Ground Team, and something happens to one of the members on your team I think it is pretty important that they have a CAPF 60 on their person.

Why?

If the member is conscious, they can answer any questions necessary, if not, are you going to dig for a 60 so you can call mom
instead of EMS?

And once they are transported, or worse, then the Wing CC or others can make the notifications. 

That is why the 60's are in a standard place - so you don't have to dig for them. It isn't necessarily about calling mom - but having basic medical information such as allergies and pre-existing conditions could save a life in a heartbeat (bazinga). Now granted, in most situations you are going to be working with and near people that you interact with regularly so you would probably know if that person had some pre-existing or chronic condition (ie asthma) so if they are walking up a steep hill in the Colorado Mountains and suddenly become extremely short of breath or pass-out, you probably know what to do. However, it can't be guaranteed that you will always be around people that you interact with regularly on a mission or activity.

Also think about things like antibiotic allergies - injecting someone with a hefty dose of Penn. if they are allergic can be deadly very quickly, having that information available for paramedics or first-responders could be instrumental in saving someone if they are not conscious.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 27, 2012, 11:06:31 PM
And as to medical issues, how accurate is the info on a 60 going to be?  And what if its blank?

I personally verify that both copies are filled out when a member reports to an activity, with the exception of meetings. We keep the 60s on file with the member record and have them updated regularly so we know they are relatively up to date and definitely not blank.
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

Eclipse

#5
^
Quote from: krnlpanick on December 27, 2012, 11:24:11 PMI personally verify that both copies are filled out when a member reports to an activity...

All you are verifying is that there is some markings on the page.  I can't tell you the number of times I've had to deal with
cadets who had serious, potentially life-threatening medical issues but did not provide either accurate, or sometimes any information.  (i.e. seizure disorders with no indication or serious medical cocktails, etc).

Then there's the disconnected phone numbers, etc.

The only way you will know whether the information provided is accurate is after it's needed, and as mentioned,
more and more people are refusing to provide that information.

You can tell people up and down "they have to", and they simply don't.  Since you can't prove a negative, they aren't
much value.

Just as they are going to type you, regardless of what it says on your dog tags, no professional EMS is going to
take other medical steps until they know your situation, same as if you are lying unconscious and alone on a
city street.

The emergency contact info is supposed to be updated on eServices, and during any mission, plenty of people
have access to that.  If mom needs to be called, that's where the information should be coming from.  Not a 60
that was printed 2 years ago and has been in the cadet's pocket since before they moved.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get this kind of information, but relying too heavily on it, especially in
regards to cadets, might be just as bad, or worse then not having it.

And requiring it be in-hand at the time of mission check-in sets up plenty of opportunity to make things up just to
get one in.  I'd rather see a mandate that unit staff vet the information personally on line then bother with 60's.

"That Others May Zoom"

krnlpanick

^

These are all fair points Eclipse, I think a good solution that addresses both of our concerns is to eliminate the paper 60s and then provide the GTL or OIC with a printout of the 60 data to have with him in the field. If units are required to ensure that the data in eServices is valid then that eliminates the problem altogether. While I agree that any competent EMS will assess the situation himself and make the judgement based off the information they can obtain at the scene, I personally feel that there is no such thing as providing a first-responder with as much information as possible. If the GTL or OIC has that information (and it is known to be verified) right in front of him then I think that is a great solution.

OTOH, there is some stuff on the 60 that the GTL or OIC probably doesn't even need to know - such as doctor name/number, SQ/CC contact info. I think just providing them with the information that is pertinent to the safety of the member is good enough - known allergies and pre-existing conditions. This is also a liability issue IMHO. If a cadet shows up with a fractured foot on GTL and b/c of the fractured foot falls and hurts himself or somebody else that creates a liability issue for CAP and/or the GTL/OIC in my mind. Having verifiable medical disclosure information available to them limits that liability, because at least we are asking about pre-existing conditions and allergies. Just my $0.02.
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

Eclipse

I'd say a reasonable compromise would be to have the GBD or other mission staff (IC for small missions) run the
eServices information and simply include making sure we have it as part of the GBD checklist.

The teams would not be released until that checklist is completed, the members could provide that info
via radio (yeah, persec, I know), cell phone, or email / text, etc.

The information is in hand, the administrative burden is lessoned and on the desks where it belongs, and
the field guys stay out of it.

"That Others May Zoom"

docbiochem33

I understand the need for a Form 60 in that it does have information as to my local healthcare provider.  Much of the information otherwise is sometimes ignored by a local hospital unless the person is awake and can confirm the information.  They may use the allergies and work around those allergies, but they will still try to confirm that information.  That means they will call the PCP.  Blood type is another area they will largely ignore.  Since many people who think they know their blood type and don't they always try to do a type and cross match before surgical procedures.  I also know that many try to test for medications if there is time, but without the actual bottle there, there is not much that can be done.

I also understand why people don't give up information.  I don't think that people want that information spread around.  It is hard enough in some places to keep personnel information quiet let alone medical information.  There are things I have heard in private that, if it were known, could be a problem for someone.  People talk to much and don't realize that they could be violating the law.

krnlpanick

Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2012, 02:28:55 AM
I'd say a reasonable compromise would be to have the GBD or other mission staff (IC for small missions) run the
eServices information and simply include making sure we have it as part of the GBD checklist.

The teams would not be released until that checklist is completed, the members could provide that info
via radio (yeah, persec, I know), cell phone, or email / text, etc.

The information is in hand, the administrative burden is lessoned and on the desks where it belongs, and
the field guys stay out of it.

I think that is a pretty reasonable compromise and still addresses the issue as I see it. I also think that it won't be happening anytime soon, no matter how good an idea we think it is. :)
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP