Hypothetical Situation

rebowman · December 09, 2012, 01:56:16 AM

Deputy Commander for Cadets of a squadron away for 2 months due to minor medical -- still available for contact.

Squadron Commander filling in during meetings. A very new senior member approaches the Squadron CC; new senior member wants to question the cadets about what they like in CAP, dislike, what can be improved, etc...

Should Deputy Commander for Cadets be aware of this situation?

lordmonar · December 09, 2012, 02:01:22 AM

Its up to the Squadron Commander....it is his squadorn.

AngelWings · December 09, 2012, 02:06:06 AM

Sure, it really isn't a huge thing. It's typical to have seniors to interact with cadets in a composite squadron. No where does it say they can't, and most of the SM's I've met who believe they can't interact were either lied to or did not want to participate with cadets and wanted an excuse for it.

It also can be interesting. Here is what my concern would be:

Is he trying to use this as a way to boost him or herself up through the ranks? It is a sadly typical situation for people to use situations like that to boost themselves into power because they make everyone feel as if they are going to make things better.

My suggestion is to not let him use what he gathers in a way to make himself look better. Initiative like that usually has murky motives. Also, make sure he is supervised by another SM involved with the cadets if possible.

lordmonar · December 09, 2012, 02:13:14 AM

On the othe side of that coin....new senior member may be seeing a stagnant cadet program and is really looking to help improve it.....not trying to suplant anyone.

So...like I said....it is up to the squadron commander.

AngelWings · December 09, 2012, 02:17:06 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2012, 02:13:14 AM
On the othe side of that coin....new senior member may be seeing a stagnant cadet program and is really looking to help improve it.....not trying to suplant anyone.

So...like I said....it is up to the squadron commander.

It is.

My post is merely just highlighting a concern. There is a lot of good people who join CAP, and they're the reason why CAP is awesome, but there is also a few bad apples. I'm stating the obvious, I know, but it's worthwhile to make sure it is noted.

lordmonar · December 09, 2012, 02:19:22 AM

Quote from: AngelWings on December 09, 2012, 02:17:06 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 09, 2012, 02:13:14 AM
On the othe side of that coin....new senior member may be seeing a stagnant cadet program and is really looking to help improve it.....not trying to suplant anyone.

So...like I said....it is up to the squadron commander.
It is.

My post is merely just highlighting a concern. There is a lot of good people who join CAP, and they're the reason why CAP is awesome, but there is also a few bad apples. I'm stating the obvious, I know, but it's worthwhile to make sure it is noted.

I know....and agree....but let's keep this fair and balanced....too often we focus on the bad apples and not the REAL CAP.

rebowman · December 09, 2012, 02:22:22 AM

Two months isn't a long time. The new senior can wait till the Deputy Commander returns.

NCRblues · December 09, 2012, 02:27:46 AM

Quote from: rebowman on December 09, 2012, 02:22:22 AM
Two months isn't a long time. The new senior can wait till the Deputy Commander returns.

Or not. If the SQD/CC has given the ok, than you really have no say in the situation.

Plus, the SQD/CC more than likely gave 52-16 para 4-4c a thought when he/she gave permission.

rebowman · December 09, 2012, 02:51:46 AM

Not sure what happened but my original post is gone -- I was just editing a word and then everything disappeared. Oh well

sarmed1 · December 09, 2012, 04:17:13 AM

This is pretty much how I ended up as a DCC once. The program was stagnating, the DCC was absent for a few months due to medical and transportation issues but not in much contact with the CC except by occasional phone call. I may have been eaither activites or leadership officer. Had a sit down with the cadet staff on an off night, presented ideas where they could improve things...after about a couple of weeks and a seemingly much more re-juvinated program he asked me to take over as DCC. (a bloodless coup de tat was never my intention)

mk

Texas Raiders · December 09, 2012, 01:32:37 PM

I see no issues with the new SM asking his/her questions, if the Squadron Commander has given permission. The individual in question may be trying to get to know the cadets, while also identifying their motivation, interests, as well as areas that he/she may be able to help with. A fresh set of eyes in many cases can help a unit identify and fix a problem(s) that would otherwise go overlooked or un-noticed. This is common in the military when a new officer or enlisted supervisor transfers into a unit. I am new to a squadron and will be planning to talk to a few cadets at a time throughout my first six months to a year (upon completion of CPPT) for the same reason. I intend on working with cadet programs and was told that every SM in the squadron is encouraged to do so.

For those worried about interaction with the cadets, here ya go....
CAPR52-10 Section 3, paragraph b. All senior members must be screened in accordance with CAPM 39-2 and undergo Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT) before working with cadets (CAPR 50-17, CAP
Senior Member Professional Development Program). Members who have not completed the
screening process and received their FBI "approved" status will not be permitted to act as the
primary supervisor at cadet activities or associate with cadets in any way without the in-person
supervision of a senior member who is currently in FBI "approved" status. FBI approved status
is defined by a leadership code of "A" on the monthly membership listing and the issuance of a
membership card that does not reflect the word "temporary."

Once the SM in question has completed CPPT and is FBI approved, he/she may engage in un-supervised interaction with cadets.

NIN · December 09, 2012, 03:39:14 PM

As a former squadron commander, I sometimes had to look at the motivations of officers who were not specifically in a position to be asking/doing these kinds of things.

Example: your squadron communications officer is a nice guy, ham radio operator, well intending, etc. But he's got so many irons in the fire with his job, other volunteerism, etc, that he can't be really effective as a unit commo officer beyond helping coordinate ROA classes and processing the occasional ROA paperwork. Add to the fact that he's not a good presented/instructor (but he thinks he is) and he's a shambling wreck in a uniform no matter how much you try to square him away short of going to his house before each meeting and dressing him.

He comes to you and says that he wants to talk to the cadets about cadet programs issues. Not the DCC, but you, the commander.

He's not CP rated, he's never worked in CP apart from being the assistant testing officer when you needed an extra warm body (and he did little else but take up valuable laser toner by printing his name on the manning document in that job...), and on a weekly basis you do what you can to keep him away from the cadets.

First things first: "Why do you want to talk to the cadets about cadet programs issues?"

Followed by "Have you spoken to the deputy commander for cadets about this?"

which is my precursor to "I'd like to have this conversation with the DCC."

Usually, misguided/misplaced interest in doing "things out of your lane" wind up disappearing after this.

If its a legitimate construct ("I want to talk to the cadets about incorporating more communications in our day to day and week to week training..") then we can buck that request thru both the deputy commander for seniors (so the seniors get training as well) _and_ the DCC.

If its a vague desire to swerve into the DCC's lane while he's not occupying it, then the buck stops with the commander.

Eclipse · December 09, 2012, 04:51:53 PM

+1

Texas Raiders · December 09, 2012, 07:37:34 PM

Maybe the squadron commander should discuss this hypothetical SM's motivation and intentions. Unlike the very detailed scenario above regarding the commo, this scenario involves a new member. I don't think we're getting a very detailed description of the situation.

How new is this SM?
Has he or she completed CPPT?
Is the new SM interested in CP or chosen CP as his or her specialty?
Is there any reason to be suspicious or overly critical of this person?
How well do you know this person or have you made an effort to get to know them?
Are you being overly sensitive?

NIN · December 09, 2012, 07:57:39 PM

I missed the "very new" part.

Still and all: if the DCC is currently assigned, even while unavailable, the conversation needs to be had with the DCC in the loop. It sounds like a case of someone doesn't know their lane (with the caveat "yet" since its a "very new" member)

coudano · December 09, 2012, 10:57:50 PM

I just thought it might be reasonable to point out, that in order to earn a technician rating in CP, senior members must, under service requirements,

Quote from: CAPP 2163. Confer with at least two first-year cadets and inquire about their main reasons for joining. Share your findings with your trainer and/or commander.

That said, when i'm away from my squadron on a temporary basis, but still "being the deputy commander", I like to at least be aware of what is going on at home, mostly just so i'm not surprised if/when something comes up later (parents call or email me, trying to figure out whats up... i prefer not to be like "uh, i dunno"). It's not really about blocking interaction on my part, as it is just staying in the know about what's going on in "my program". THAT said, when i'm gone, i'm gone. So it's in the hands of those who aren't gone, ultimately the squadron commander's.