Opening/Closing Formation - Reporting

[krnlpanick]

We have a new SM in our squadron that is just coming off of guard duty as a CWO in the ARNG and before that was AD USAF, he informed us at our last meeting that our cadets were doing our reporting wrong while in formation.

Generally, the Flight Sgt. has the flight fall in, then orders the element leaders to report - the element leaders are at the left of the element so they report from front to back (1st to 4th). The new SM informed us that the element leaders should be at the front of the flight during reporting so that each of them is directly facing the Flight Sgt with their elements behind them.

Every formation I have seen reports the way we are doing it and the AFI is somewhat unclear on this as there is only a brief mention of reporting (that I was able to find - and Ctrl+F usually works pretty well) so my question is this. Which way is correct. Should the flight fall in with Element Leaders to the left, then perform a Right Face to report to the Flight Sgt. so their elements are behind them, or is the way we are currently doing it the correct way?

Can anyone provide me with a link to documentation on this?

[lordmonar]

The CWO is wrong.  I don't know how the Army does it....but we do it with the element leaders in ranks with their elements. 

See the drill and ceremony manual it is plainly spelled out.

[Майор Хаткевич]

They should form up in line formation, meaning the element leaders are stacked behind each other. When marching, the command of right face places them into column formation with the element leaders all in the front. That said, I'm not sure why the element leaders are reporting at all. The flt. Sgt. should be reporting to the flight commander and all of the flight commanders to the next level. That maybe what the SM is thinking off. As our units rarely have a full squadron, this may be why the cadets do it the way they do. Simply not enough bodies to do it right as is.

[krnlpanick]

They should form up in line formation, meaning the element leaders are stacked behind each other. When marching, the command of right face places them into column formation with the element leaders all in the front. That said, I'm not sure why the element leaders are reporting at all. The flt. Sgt. should be reporting to the flight commander and all of the flight commanders to the next level. That maybe what the SM is thinking off. As our units rarely have a full squadron, this may be why the cadets do it the way they do. Simply not enough bodies to do it right as is.

This is exactly what I was thinking, it is nice to have confirmation. I am going to dig up the procedure from the D&C manual tonight so we can review it tomorrow and ensure that everyone is on the same page. That is exactly how we are currently doing it, in line formation. The element leaders report to the Fl. Sgt who reports to the 1Sgt who reports to the C/CC who in turn reports to the CC. We are pushing the limits of a single flight of cadets and will likely be breaking in to a second flight soon so perhaps tomorrow we will form into 2 flights and see if that makes more sense to him.

The CWO is wrong.  I don't know how the Army does it....but we do it with the element leaders in ranks with their elements. 

See the drill and ceremony manual it is plainly spelled out.

With all due respect, I am not simply going to tell the CWO that he is wrong. 

[krnlpanick]

I just happened to scroll right to the page when I pulled up the AFMAN this time

5.3.3. Each flight sergeant takes a post three paces in front of and centered on the flight. The flights then
form as prescribed under the supervision of the flight sergeants.
5.3.4. The flight sergeants then command REPORT. Remaining in position, the element leaders in
succession from front to rear of each flight salute and report  _____ Element, all present or _____
Element, (number) person(s) absent. The flight sergeants then face about.
5.3.5. Upon receiving the command  REPORT  given by the first sergeant, the flight sergeants,
beginning with the right flight, successively salute and report _____ Flight, all present or accounted
for or _____  Flight, (number) persons absent. After all flights have reported, the first sergeant
commands POST. The flight sergeants face about and move by the most direct route to their positions in
the ranks. The squadron commander takes a position 12 paces in front of, centered on, and facing the
squadron to receive the report of the first sergeant. The  guidon bearer assumes a position with the
commander. The first sergeant faces the squadron commander, salutes, and reports  Sir (Ma'am), all
present or accounted for or (number) persons absent. Without a command, the first sergeant faces
about and moves by the most direct route to the appropriate position.
5.3.6. Flight commanders immediately take their posts after the first sergeant has reported (figure 5.2).
5.3.7. In forming the squadron, any individual required  to make a report salutes while reporting and
holds the salute until it is returned. The individual receiving the report does not return the salute until the
report is completed.

The primary difference that I see between this and how we are currently doing it is that we report in the format

"nth element reports, n cadets present and accounted for sgt"

At closing, the report is

"nth element reports, all cadets present and accounted for sgt." or "nth element reports, n cadets absent sgt." if a cadet had to leave prior to closing (which almost never happens)

[Garibaldi]

It's been like that since I was a cadet, in 1981. We always stacked the element (squad) leaders, front to back. Element leaders reported the number of their squad present or accounted for to the flight sergeant, who in turn reported to the flight commander, and so on. The cadet commander reported to the unit cc (cadet squadron) or DCC (composite squadron).

Gently inform this gentleman that this is the CAP way. If he insists that his way is the right way, pass him along to someone who is a little higher up the food chain, like the DCC if you have one, who will address his concerns.

It's always been my experience that the span of control for an element leader is about 5 to 7 cadets, with no more than 4 elements to a flight. The old Leadership Lab manual spelled everything out for us, from formation composition to marching in parade formation.

[coudano]

I always that that was the most stupid and useless thing.  Just some ceremony, I guess.  Of couse they are all present or accounted for...   To say anything else would be to stand there and say "good morning, boss, i'm incompetent"   /whatevs...


That said, as others have pointed out, your probably well intentioned WO is incorrect per the reg (AFMAN 36-2203), which has been cited.  When you fall in, the formation should be in line formation.


--THAT SAID, at USAF BMT, for about the first four weeks, everyone runs out of their dorm and piles up into column formation about six times a day, and executes a close march.  And what's worse, they use the word "fall in" to get the troops to do this.  The -reason- for this is because it's the only way to fit a lot of formations of troops in the patios below the bays (pack them in like sardines), and it's easy to march off from it (or column of files back inside), since you are already in column formation.

Your CWO is (probably) remembering something like this, that was done non-standard.  He might even be prior enlisted USAF... (actually you said in your post that he was prior AD USAF, so there...)   Simple case of "we always did it this way" (at least to the best of his memory).  They don't teach fall in correctly until well past the halfway mark of BMT, and except at drill practice, I don't remember them using it in a practical fashion on a daily basis...    ever.



So anyway, thank him for his service, and his advice.  If he wants, show him the reg, and how you are following it exactly.  Then let the deputy commander for cadets handle it.    Not your job to butt heads with senior members.

[68w20]

Based on my experience that's not even correct on the Army side, unless Aviation branch does things differently.  I've always fallen in with Squad (Element) Leaders to the left (from the Commander's PoV) of the formation, stacked front to rear.  That's been universal in my experience in my RSP Company, Basic Training Infantry Company, AIT Medical Company, and my current Field Artillery Battery.

[TJT__98]

...I've always fallen in with Squad (Element) Leaders to the left (from the Commander's PoV) of the formation, stacked front to rear...

That's how we do it at our unit as well.

[Garibaldi]

Funny, but I am having a vague recollection of doing things the way where the element leaders are in front. I think it might have been AFROTC and I think it was because we always formed up in the direction of march. I always thought it was weird but it made some sort of sense.