New CAP Governance Structure

[BrannG]

I have an Associates of Applied Science in Network Administration, a Bacholars in Business Administration, and I'm a Network Engineer... hmm..

The Associates I have means NOTHING.. isn't asked for, isn't verified, it has collected dust since the day it was handed to me. Instead, I am required to get dozens of certifications and keep them current.. that means something.. not the 60+ credit hours spent on my AAS.. no.. its the 12 credit hours (if they even GIVE credit hours...) for the certificate that makes my 60k+ income. Hmmmm..

My BBA? Not used either. However, I personally take pride in it, as it is a milestone to my MBA, which is my goal. Why? Not so I can use it to make money somewhere, its a personal goal.. see.. Network Engineers don't have any need for a BBA or MBA..

So on that note..

The real "fix" for this, assuming you acknowledge there a problem, is for CAP to provide the training - just like the military.  Basic Training, tech schools, officer schools, the works.  Clearly that breaks the economics of "bring what you have" that is CAP's strongest ROI, but that is the only way to compare military officers with CAP officers

This is the exactly needed solution. You want quality officers running this organization? TRAIN THEM TO BE THE OFFICERS YOU EXPECT THEM TO BE. The issue with a purely volunteer force is the mixed bag of tricks that comes with it.

Personally, I seriously think we need to revamp the NCO Corps.. the current idea that only AD/RET military members can hold NCO ranks is BS. Use the NCO structure to make better use of our grade system, training, and standardization. All officers should be required to have degrees, no degree? NCO Corps.. That makes sure proper leadership is earned with proper experience vs a squadron filled with Captains... You want to use the AF system of grade/tis/tig? THEN USE AF STANDARDS FOR EACH GRADE.

If you don't want to, then bring the "Polo Corps" into play and stop the AF grade system all together.

I'm VERY pro military structure, but CAP needs to be either the United States Air Force Auxiliary (and thus act like it..) or drop our AF association and just be purely Civil Air Patrol......

Just my 2 cents

[AirDX]

I'd be in favor of upping the requirements for CAP commissioned grade, just because it would increase our status with the active duty folks.  The more comparable our training and selection process is to theirs, the more respect we will get.

Using the flight officer grades would be best for the rest I think, exactly because the Air Force has nothing like it.  No worries about stepping on anyone's toes. 

One thing I would love to see in the education realm is CAP getting a few seats a year in the AU online masters program.  According to the website they allocate 150 seats a year to AF civilians, getting 10 or 15 for CAP would be a great way to hook those rising majors and give some of our best and brightest a serious qualification.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go write a screed on the French Revolution for MY masters degree class.     

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I'd be in favor of upping the requirements for CAP commissioned grade, just because it would increase our status with the active duty folks.  The more comparable our training and selection process is to theirs, the more respect we will get.

Using the flight officer grades would be best for the rest I think, exactly because the Air Force has nothing like it.  No worries about stepping on anyone's toes. 

One thing I would love to see in the education realm is CAP getting a few seats a year in the AU online masters program.  According to the website they allocate 150 seats a year to AF civilians, getting 10 or 15 for CAP would be a great way to hook those rising majors and give some of our best and brightest a serious qualification.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go write a screed on the French Revolution for MY masters degree class.   

I like this. Now, what do we do with those folks who wear officer grade but don't meet the requirements?

And how might this bolster an enlisted corps?

[jhsmith400]

We could have 2 ways to fix that offer those folks a lateral movement right over to an NCO rank, or grandfather them in the positions, kind of like the USAF did for USAAF folks who joined during WW2 as flight cadets, many of whom had no college degrees (think BGen Yeager, why he couldn't become an astronaut), well this is just an easy comparison and not as complex as was often the way it happened.

[cap235629]

professions that there's no way you can work in without college.

Case in point: I work for an architecture & engineering firm. Are you going to trust the entire infrastructure of the nation to people that didn't study civil engineering and then were certified and licensed?

I don't want to trust that my water will be clean, the roads & bridges won't collapse and that there won't be flooding every time it rains to anyone who just has a raw talent for numbers and spatial thinking. I also would never buy a home that wasn't designed by a licensed architect, so I can be sure that it won't collapse on my head, the foundation won't sink or that I'll actually be warm enough in the winter because its properly insulated and the HVAC is tuned.

I guarantee that the majority of the construction, maintenance and operation of the infrastructure you mention is completed by skilled laborers that never went to college. So this point is ridiculous because though an "engineer" may have designed the system he didn't actually construct it.  Someone with callouses on their hands did.  Those hands are what keep you safe, not the degree the designer has. 

[jhsmith400]

As for the enlisted folks they could start as slick sleeve AB's, with exceptions for non-CAP training.  In example; a new member with an EMT might start as a "two stripe" airman, a Paramedic as a SRA.  Now this is just an idea and only an example.

[jhsmith400]

As for that cap23..., many of the designs that crumbled were also built by those hands, so the hands will build what they are paid to, yes with great skill and care, but those hands don't know the difference the brains should have.

[cap235629]

In reality, I doubt that many of our current Wing or Region commanders don't have a degree of some sort anyway...

The "some sort" raises an interesting point.

In more rural parts of the country, unit cc's required to have a degree are likely to be hanging something regarding "animal husbandry" or "farm economics"
on their walls.

The real "fix" for this, assuming you acknowledge there a problem, is for CAP to provide the training - just like the military.  Basic Training, tech schools, officer schools, the works.  Clearly that breaks the economics of "bring what you have" that is CAP's strongest ROI, but that is the only way to compare
military officers with CAP officers.

I guarantee we'd see a huge spike in both recruiting and higher education if CAP started popping for college.

I would be happy if they opened the CCAF to CAP

[flyguy06]

Ned is right. Other than people that start their own small business. The CEO of Delta Airlines or Coca Cola is going to be someone with at least an MBA.

Heck, Even in the military, why do you think they require Officers to have derees? General Officers have Masters degrees. I mean the National Commander has to do the following:
Aquisition and sustain and maintain 550 aircraft, Hundreds of vehicles, and thousands of dollars worth of communication equipment.
He has oversee a ful time staf at National Headquarters through the COO
He has to make timely decisions that effect thousands of volunteers.

You just dont want anyone doing that. Heck, I couldnt do that job right now.

[FW]

Ned is right. Other than people that start their own small business. The CEO of Delta Airlines or Coca Cola is going to be someone with at least an MBA.

Heck, Even in the military, why do you think they require Officers to have derees? General Officers have Masters degrees. I mean the National Commander has to do the following:
Aquisition and sustain and maintain 550 aircraft, Hundreds of vehicles, and thousands of dollars worth of communication equipment.
He has oversee a ful time staf at National Headquarters through the COO
He has to make timely decisions that effect thousands of volunteers.

You just dont want anyone doing that. Heck, I couldnt do that job right now.

The National Commander has many responsibilities however, the aquisition, sustainence, and maintainence of our "stuff" is not in the job discription. Nor is the oversight of the paid staff. That responsibity falls directly to the COO who, reports directly to the BoG in these matters. All matters regarding the expendatures of government funds is handled by either the COO or CFO; depending on the BoG's wishes.

[Eclipse]

^ And this is typical for a corporate leader - they are not "wrench turners", nor generally even SME's for their companies.
In fact, this is noted in a lot of high-visibility failures - namely that the highly paid Cxx had no idea how the company actually
functioned, nor what it really took to "git her done".

I've been involved in more than one start-up, and a couple or "used to be" companies, where when it came to IPO time or financial difficulties, "corporate types" had to be brought in to make the company more attractive to VCs.  They brought their sheepskins, high salaries, and "no idea what we did" and ran the places into the ground.

The people who had the vision and an actual clue were marginalized, and the suits "BC'ed out the door with a few more magic bucks.

The point is that the leaders have to be invested in the ideas and organization, not their external business plans.

The National Commander has many responsibilities however, the aquisition, sustainence, and maintainence of our "stuff" is not in the job discription. Nor is the oversight of the paid staff. That responsibity falls directly to the COO who, reports directly to the BoG in these matters. All matters regarding the expendatures of government funds is handled by either the COO or CFO; depending on the BoG's wishes.

So what is the line between "administrative" and "operational" now?

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure I really like the fact that our CEO actually isn't the CEO since he/she will not actually control the paid staff of the organization that they are supposedly leading.  Is that normal in other national volunteer-based organizations?  '

Sort of violates that unity of command thing. 

[jimmydeanno]

So what is the line between "administrative" and "operational" now?

My take on it is that operational is the general direction of how our paid resources are going to be used, and administrative is personnel issues.  It's probably not a good idea to place the employment status of a paid individual at the whim of one volunteer.

[AirDX]

I guarantee that the majority of the construction, maintenance and operation of the infrastructure you mention is completed by skilled laborers that never went to college. So this point is ridiculous because though an "engineer" may have designed the system he didn't actually construct it.  Someone with callouses on their hands did.  Those hands are what keep you safe, not the degree the designer has.

Ah, no.  The guys with the calluses build what's on the blueprints.  The engineers and architects need to design a safe structure.  That's why they have all those degrees and licenses.  There's an excellent book out there called Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail that gives a lot of insight into the subtle errors made in design that cause disasters.

[AirDX]

Heck, Even in the military, why do you think they require Officers to have derees? General Officers have Masters degrees.

Out in the regular Air Force, if you don't have a masters degree, you're not getting past major, let alone to GO rank.

[Eclipse]

Ah, no.  The guys with the calluses build what's on the blueprints.  The engineers and architects need to design a safe structure.  That's why they have all those degrees and licenses.  There's an excellent book out there called Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail that gives a lot of insight into the subtle errors made in design that cause disasters.

In this example, the degree is technical training, no different then learning to be a pilot - required to understand the job, but no more indication
that Mr. Brady could run the company, then the average airline pilot could.

Knowing how to use a slide-rule and a t-square, or understanding the physics of load-bearing curtain walls doesn't mean you have a clue
about running the company that is paying your salary.

Heck, Even in the military, why do you think they require Officers to have derees? General Officers have Masters degrees.

Out in the regular Air Force, if you don't have a masters degree, you're not getting past major, let alone to GO rank.

Out in the "regular Air Force" you're a full-time employee, which includes being paid for your housing, food an clothing.

Oh, and you'll be getting that masters on the USAF nickel.

[ProdigalJim]

Quite apart from the debate over whether or not a Bachelor's of some sort is a desirable qualification for a Nat CC, I'm mystified by the outright derision some people here seem to have for degrees and, by extension, for those who have them.

It boils down to whether you consider a degree just another vocational/trade qualification, like a Commercial Driver's License, a Barber's License, an RN, an NREMT-P, etc., or something more.

I happen to believe in the idea of education as a means of improving your ability to think, to reason, to understand, to challenge and to grow. Really.

Here are some of the "useless" courses I took: European History, Medieval History, American History, Military History, Money and Banking, Economics 1, Economics 2, the History of Political Thought, Statistics 1, English Composition , Advanced English Composition, Principles of International Trade, Monetary Systems, Revolutions and Reform, Comparative Religion.

Because I took those things, I am aware of how political movements have formed and fared over the years...I know how Europe has been shaped by dynasty and the clash of nobility over centuries...the conflicting ideas and threads that kicked off the Protestant reformation and how those conflicts and ideas remain unresolved today...I'm not mystified by how banking works...or how economic policy is made, managed and mismanaged. I can balance a checkbook...build a spreadsheet to analyze the pros and cons of a business plan...interpret budget documents...read complex reports enough to formulate questions about them, so I can learn more. I have a lens with which to view the world around me. There are many things I don't know, but the world around me doesn't baffle me the way it otherwise would. I can write a coherent sentence, organize my thoughts and make myself understood.

None of the above are "useless" skills. All of the above can be acquired in different ways. College is just one of those ways, and it happens to be a pretty efficient and streamlined way to do it. Many of these skills I have since honed dramatically in 30 years of professional life. But the fact that I built the foundation for knowing these things in a collegiate setting doesn't NEGATE the value of knowing those things or of learning the skills needed to enable me to learn more.

And just to add the final irony...I learned all of those things in my CORE classes, that everyone who wants to graduate had to take. NOT in my major, which was...wait for it...Art History. Really. And I've been gainfully employed every day of my life since I was 16. 

[lordmonar]

I'm not sure I really like the fact that our CEO actually isn't the CEO since he/she will not actually control the paid staff of the organization that they are supposedly leading.  Is that normal in other national volunteer-based organizations?  '

Sort of violates that unity of command thing.

But he will...through because he controls the COO who controls the paid staff.

[Eclipse]

The value of a degree is in the eye of the beholder.

The derision works both ways, and I don't think an academic (pun intended) discussion of whether or not having a BA, in and of itself, would make you a "better' National CC should be considered "derision" of college degrees as a concept.

As you say, college is one option for education.  It isn't the only one, and depending on the career field, isn't necessarily the best one.

It's a subjective decision and should be treated that way.

[ProdigalJim]

^^^^
^^^^^
Fair enough. I guess my point here was not the merits of the debate itself...which I think is worth having and there are points on both sides...but more the tone of some commenters (not you) about college being a waste by definition, for anybody. Kind of a sidebar to the main argument on which, for the moment, I think I'll reserve judgment.

My Mom was DIRT poor...college wasn't handed to me...I won a full ride and wound up walking away from it for family reasons after two and a half years. It then took me a long, long, long time to get that "useless" degree, and I value what I learned along the way. I have no problem with debating whether Nat CC ought to have a degree, but I believe that's a different argument than the value of a college education generally.