Should we or should we not add this to are cadet oath?

[Flying Pig]

 RedSox, Your youthful inexperience is getting the better of you.  Calling out people you dont know on an internet site is juvenile.  Your actually being counter-productive to your goal and you dont even realize it.

[Cap'n]

I am going to start off very bluntly:

This is an awful idea. It does sound nice, don't get me wrong, but it you think of the whole picture, it wouldn't be fair. How many people are in your squadron? We can use mine for example. About 150. Now, of about those 150, I know a big majority of them are either not religious, or their religion doesn't consist of one/a God. A lot of those people include very good friends of mine, and I know for a fact how uncomfortable they would be if they had to say that they work for God in their Oath. I know some that would quit.

Do you remember that Non-Discrimination Oath you have to take immediately after joining? I do, and that was almost a year ago. Non-discrimination means saying no to sexism, racism, and not judging against religion or culture. I myself am a pretty strict Catholic, and will show it at CAP. But, you have to be discreet to respect those around you. I proudly wear my cross and dogtags under my uniform for meetings and activities in CAP. I attend Chaplain services and Mass during CAP sponsored events that give me the opportunity to do so. But while a majority in CAP believe in a God, a lot don't, and it definitely isn't our place to make them.

I believe that if this was a total Christian organization, sure, go for it. But it's not. CAP gives you the freedom to believe in what you want. So if this is important to you, preach it to yourself. You don't need an official Oath to pledge yourself to work for God, and it shouldn't be a big issue to do it privately as opposed to publicly.

CAP already gives every member opportunities to express their religion in some way- don't abuse that.

[Extremepredjudice]

Let's turn the table. What if someone wanted to add something about there being "no god, and god didn't exist?" Same thing as what you are doing except it dumps on athiests, agnostics, and polytheists.

[LGM30GMCC]

If the Presidential Oath, Oath of Commission, and Oath of Enlistment all can go without it, our cadet oath certainly can.

Heck, I, were I still a commander, would have no problem if at the end of the oath for a promotion ceremony you wanted to add 'so help me God' as a number of folks do with the previous three do from time to time, I'm cool with that. If, however, you were teaching it to subordinates adding those 4 words, then I would have an issue with that!

The phrase 'under God' or 'in God we trust' and the like didn't really start creeping up into the American lexicon for official functions (the pledge, oaths, money and whatever) until generally the 1950s(ish) as a way of differentiating ourselves from the communists of the Soviet Union.

Quite a few of the founding fathers were Christians, however a number of them were not. They were deists.

Read the Declaration of Independence. Guess what? No mention of 'God.' It mentions 'their creator' but that is pretty inclusive of many different world views, including those without creationist stories. (Little bit of a stretch for them, but still fairly workable in that it is saying they are inherent rights of people, which is the point Thomas Jefferson was trying to make.)

The Constitution also makes zero mention of God. The only thing it says is in the amendments where it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" That's not just against a state religion (i.e. The Church of England) but about establishing religion as a requirement at all. This is the heart of the if you want to add it to the end when saying it personally, it gets into Constitutionally protected territory if I say you can't do that. But the very same amendment can get you into trouble if you start trying to require other people to say it.

The BSA, as a private organization can add it in there all they want. CAP gets quite a bit of money from tax payers so requiring something like gets into very risky territory. This is one of the reasons that religious organizations and taxpayer money tend not to mix so well either.

For a secular organization, based culturally on the US Military (sorry to those corporatists who don't like that idea), I think it is very appropriate for us to leave it out from the official version. If you personally want to add it for your own recitation, go for it. But if asked what the oath is, and you add it...you are now wrong because it isn't part of it. And it shouldn't be.

[caphornbuckle]

Look at it this way, if you will:

If you look at the Cadet Oath, you will see that there is nothing in there that says you will obey your parents (unless they are Officers), attend school, or be nice to others but that is expected by everyone I can think of.  Just because it's not in the Cadet Oath doesn't mean it isn't something important.  Now granted, a person's religious beliefs are theirs and theirs alone so for you and your particular beliefs, it is expected that you will follow it anyways.

[Critical AOA]

Ah... both functionally illiterate and a religious zealot.  Who would have thought?

[SarDragon]

That was a little harsh, wasn't it? Pointing out generalities is one thing, but personal attacks are entirely another.

[Extremepredjudice]

Ah... both functionally illiterate and a religious zealot.  Who would have thought?

Ad hominem attacks are not warrented. We all have our beliefs, and there is no need to insult people's beliefs.

[ZigZag911]

As a believing Christian, who regularly participates in the worship services of my church, I would suggest that any of us who choose to do so  can give far greater witness to our faith by the example of our lives than through any words we recite.

[AngelWings]

We have freedom to religon, but we do not have freedom to force our religous beliefs onto eachother. I'm Protestant, I believe and love God and Jesus and follow the teachings of the bible.  But, no adding of religous references to a non religous organization. We're all CAP members, and we should view eachothers professional religon as CAP. We must eat, breathe, sleep, and think CAP when we're with CAP on a professional level. To explain:

My religon at CAP is CAP (in a practical sense). Not Protestant (again, in a practical sense). Why? My religon is not essential to our operations. I view all members religons (outside of CAP chaplians who are here to serve our wonderful country and their god/s) as CAP (yet again, in a practical sense). That way I do not judge them outside of their professional life. If they have a religous concern they want to bring up to me, I am all ears, but other than that, it is not a concern and none of my business what they believe. Same goes for all hot key subjects, like sexual preference, politics, etc. You need to know your men, but you don't need to know everything they believe in (outside of what I am saying below).

Only time religon should be involved with CAP is when a member is obligated by their religon to attend services or prayer or whatever, if their religon stops them from doing something (like eating something their religon doesn't allow them to), or if they need to talk to their chaplain about religous matters, and in certain cases if CAP members need to go out of regulation to accomodate their religous beliefs. I've heard of cadets having to wear skirts, certain headgear, grow beards, etc. to accomodate specific religous practices. I'm cool with that, they are keeping to their obligations as religous men and women, and I respect them just like anyone else.

Everything is about professionalism and understanding. Sometimes the best understanding comes from not knowing and avoiding things you don't need or want to know, sadly (this applies to many things). Adding religon to CAP complicates things a great deal. I prefer to have people keep their religous views outside of the workplace except for any case pointed out above or case by case basis. That way, everyone is happy and people don't waste their time fretting over other peoples religon, or lack of it.

I wear the cross around my neck (one I found at my local BX that is supposedly standard issue), tucked under my shirt and not visible. Otherwise I seperate church from state (in a more fitting sense).

I hope this helps you, and I love the Boston Red Soxs too.

YMMV. Just my 0.02 cents taught to me by Air Force members.

[♠SARKID♠]

On the other hand, the line would say my god.

Not.

Everyone.

Has.

One.

+1

RedSox, your devotion to your faith is fine and dandy.  Feel free to do whatever it is that you do.  But when you're a member of an organization with a multicultural, multifaith member base DO NOT try to mix the two.  You will step on more toes than you can count; you've already stepped on quite a few.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And all of us have at least five toes on each foot (six for those form Chernobyl).

[whatevah]

Lock... I'm a Christian (actually, my dad was a pastor) and this thread has been asked, answered and fallen on deaf ears. Religion has no place in the oath.