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Drones in CAP?

Started by old141pilot, June 20, 2012, 02:06:31 PM

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old141pilot

An AP news article by Joan Lowy reports that the military is bringing unmanned aerial vehicles (i.e. drones) back to the US from places like Iraq and Afghanistan.  The story concludes that there will be more drone flights over the US.  The story 'drones' on about farmers, ranchers, news agencies and local law enforcement applications.  The article may have intended to pique the interest of government conspiracy theorists as well.  As a pilot, I'm a little concerned about UAV's randomly flying around recording interstate snarls and sporting events.

However, an ARCHER system installed in a UAV does not seem like an inappropriate application for this technology and one that would fit the mission of CAP.  Any rumblings of this up top?

Major Lord

If the drones are used for legitimate purposes ( disaster recovery, traffic assessments from a safe altitude) and steps are taken to include anti-collision technologies ( has there ever been a mid-air in a combat zone of a drone with an aircraft? I have no idea.) The second idea, of using ARCHER is a bad idea for two reasons. One ARCHER DFW's, (Doesn't freakin' work)  and two, there is not a low of spare room in drones for extra stuff ( well, in some drones) On the positive side, going out to recover the drones after people do their level best to shoot them down ( You know how tempting that is going to be?) could be a CAP mission, and will help insure continued employment by firemen who will have to go out and extinguish the homes and forests that are set cheerily ablaze by drone crashes.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

ProdigalJim

Quote from: quietbirdman on June 20, 2012, 02:06:31 PM
An AP news article by Joan Lowy reports that the military is bringing unmanned aerial vehicles (i.e. drones) back to the US from places like Iraq and Afghanistan.  The story concludes that there will be more drone flights over the US.  The story 'drones' on about farmers, ranchers, news agencies and local law enforcement applications.  The article may have intended to pique the interest of government conspiracy theorists as well.  As a pilot, I'm a little concerned about UAV's randomly flying around recording interstate snarls and sporting events.

However, an ARCHER system installed in a UAV does not seem like an inappropriate application for this technology and one that would fit the mission of CAP.  Any rumblings of this up top?

This is in part because companies involved in the UAV world have been promoting this idea to reporters for several months. Given the winding down of the war(s), they're looking for other applications. As for conspiracy, well, they're only doing what they're supposed to be doing...looking for ways to expand their markets and applications for technologies.

Major Lord's points are well-taken. I'm pretty certain there's been some quiet work done on deconfliction in civil airspace lately...which got an extra push when Congress put some language in a recent funding measure telling FAA to get of the schneid on the issue.

As for "up top," I think there's a Q&A with Lt Gen Clarke form AFNORTH in the most recent Volunteer mag where he drops hints about CAP either embracing UAVs or at least learning to work with the technology. I don't have it in front of me, so I may not be recalling correctly...
Jim Mathews, Lt. Col., CAP
VAWG/CV
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

lordmonar

Quote from: Major Lord on June 20, 2012, 02:18:07 PM( has there ever been a mid-air in a combat zone of a drone with an aircraft? I have no idea.)
A RQ-7 was hit by a C-130 last year down range.http://defensetech.org/2011/08/17/midair-collision-between-a-c-130-and-a-uav/
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Flying Pig

"Drones" have also come to describe RC airplanes with GoPro cameras mounted on them.  Different than a UAV.  When I was in the military "drones" were old airplanes that other airplanes used for target practice.

bflynn

I don't think the story was talking about small hand held drones used for local recon.  This is clearly about the larger UAVs that are roughly the size of C-172 or larger.  I think it's also pretty clear that unless the cost of annual operations is less than the cost of operating a 182, CAP will not be involved with them unless our involvement is funded by the AF.

Hand held drones have very limited functionality in CAP, pretty much as semi-expendable recon vehicles for ground teams...if you're flying an RV airplane beyond the immediate 1000' or so around you, you have to accept the possibility that you'll lose sight of it and you're not getting it back.

krnlpanick

Quote from: bflynn on June 20, 2012, 06:05:11 PM
I don't think the story was talking about small hand held drones used for local recon.  This is clearly about the larger UAVs that are roughly the size of C-172 or larger.  I think it's also pretty clear that unless the cost of annual operations is less than the cost of operating a 182, CAP will not be involved with them unless our involvement is funded by the AF.

Hand held drones have very limited functionality in CAP, pretty much as semi-expendable recon vehicles for ground teams...if you're flying an RV airplane beyond the immediate 1000' or so around you, you have to accept the possibility that you'll lose sight of it and you're not getting it back.

Doing so would also (I am pretty sure) violate FAA regs.
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: krnlpanick on June 20, 2012, 06:07:13 PM
Quote from: bflynn on June 20, 2012, 06:05:11 PMif you're flying an RV airplane beyond the immediate 1000[/b]' or so around you, you have to accept the possibility that you'll lose sight of it and you're not getting it back.

Doing so would also (I am pretty sure) violate FAA regs.

I don't think so as long as you stay in class-G (uncontrolled) airspace - there's no requirements as to what flies there.

My point was that hand held drones have limited capabilities.

spacecommand

Can't fly cadets in a drone (legally).


Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on June 20, 2012, 07:59:15 PM
Quote from: krnlpanick on June 20, 2012, 06:07:13 PM
Quote from: bflynn on June 20, 2012, 06:05:11 PMif you're flying an RV airplane beyond the immediate 1000[/b]' or so around you, you have to accept the possibility that you'll lose sight of it and you're not getting it back.

Doing so would also (I am pretty sure) violate FAA regs.

I don't think so as long as you stay in class-G (uncontrolled) airspace - there's no requirements as to what flies there.

My point was that hand held drones have limited capabilities.
Well...a base ball bat has limited capabilities too....but it is useful for the job it was designed for.

As a GTL I can see many uses for hand deployed RPA's.  Not a cure all for anything....but definatly a tool that could be useful.
As an RPA professional.....I know that RPA's are very good at the boring jobs.  Yes there are limitations.....very glaring limintations in some cases.....but as the technology matures.....those limitations will go away.   It took years for the Wright Brothers to convince anybody that the airplane was anything more then a cool toy......same is true for the RPA.

As far as costs to maintain and operate them......as compared to CAP 182s and 206s....yes they can't complete with them on an hour per hour basis.....but again.....as the technology matures and if any one were willing to pay for the infrastructure.......the long term costs could be a major savings over what CAP does today.

The question is....do we pay now or later.....and of course the aviation community is still against them for all sorts of reasons (some valid and some not so valid).   But again as the technology matures and RPAs start getting more and more intergrated into the civilian air space.....they will, IMHO, have a place in CAP and ES.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ProdigalJim

Right on Maj/MSgt Harris!

Seriously, I found the quote I was thinking of earlier. It's in the current (April-June) quarterly edition of our own Volunteer magazine.

"I also believe CAP needs to rethink what it believes about operating unmanned air systems (UAS). With recent changes in mind regarding the use of UAS in U.S. airspace, CAP needs to strategically plan for how it will incorporate UAS into its portfolio." -- Lt. Gen. Sid Clarke, Commander, 1st Air Force (AFNORTH).

I knew I wasn't nuts. At least, not about this...  :o
Jim Mathews, Lt. Col., CAP
VAWG/CV
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

Go_Blue

Apologies for a late reply, but I see potential here for RPAs in CAP, though I'm not sure it'll be full blown ops, at least not in the near future.  Smaller class RPAs seem like they could slide into that role pretty quickly, as they are less complicated to operate.  Larger RPAs require a lot of time and training.  Who would pay for that?  Who would conduct the training?  Not something I see anytime soon.

However, something like the RQ-11 Raven might be useful to ES applications, particularly in low-visibility situations where a piloted aircraft would be limited from higher up.  A team could take a Raven out, assemble and launch it, fly lower and look for their objective from the sky without having to launch the aircrew.  I'm not in ES right now, so I'm just taking a stab at how they might be useful.  That class is also small enough so that it might be a good bet for certain rug surveillance missions.  On that line of thinking, yeah, I see these having an increased role in law enforcement in the future.  Prepare yourselves.   ;)

PHall

Quote from: Go_Blue on August 14, 2012, 02:32:06 AM
Apologies for a late reply, but I see potential here for RPAs in CAP, though I'm not sure it'll be full blown ops, at least not in the near future.  Smaller class RPAs seem like they could slide into that role pretty quickly, as they are less complicated to operate.  Larger RPAs require a lot of time and training.  Who would pay for that?  Who would conduct the training?  Not something I see anytime soon.

However, something like the RQ-11 Raven might be useful to ES applications, particularly in low-visibility situations where a piloted aircraft would be limited from higher up.  A team could take a Raven out, assemble and launch it, fly lower and look for their objective from the sky without having to launch the aircrew.  I'm not in ES right now, so I'm just taking a stab at how they might be useful.  That class is also small enough so that it might be a good bet for certain rug surveillance missions.  On that line of thinking, yeah, I see these having an increased role in law enforcement in the future.  Prepare yourselves.   ;)

And just how much does a RQ-11 cost? How much does a ground station cost? Who's going to train our people to fly and maintain this thing?

There's a lot more then let's get XXXXXX. It costs money to to buy, operate and maintain these things.

And with the current cut backs of the DoD and Air Force budgets, I don't see a lot of money for new programs right now.

nesagsar

I remember DOE sending out blast requests to fed ops centers for UAV support during the Fukushima earthquake response. I had a lot of fun typing the reply that HHS dosent have any UAVs.

Go_Blue

#15
Quote from: PHall on August 14, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
And just how much does a RQ-11 cost? How much does a ground station cost? Who's going to train our people to fly and maintain this thing?

There's a lot more then let's get XXXXXX. It costs money to to buy, operate and maintain these things.

And with the current cut backs of the DoD and Air Force budgets, I don't see a lot of money for new programs right now.
Easy there.  People are throwing around "drones" a lot on here, and if they're meaning full size RPAs, I don't see that happening given the costs and extensive training required.  Ravens are at least hand-launched, and while I don't know the cost of purchase or maintenance, if anything RPA comes down the CAP road someday in the future, I would venture a guess it'd be something like that.