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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: "We have met the enemy and it is Us"
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Author Topic: "We have met the enemy and it is Us"  (Read 16827 times)
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2012, 04:00:39 PM »

"Day long training for AP?"  There is no official training in CAP for AP, nor is there even an SQTR.  There's an empty rating
and a number of draft classes.  That's it.

There is official training for AP. There is a task guide and SQTR. The SQTR is dated Mar 10, so it's been around for a while.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2012, 05:21:23 PM »

There is official training for AP. There is a task guide and SQTR. The SQTR is dated Mar 10, so it's been around for a while.

All of that is still draft, or at a minimum not properly implemented.

I know that NESA has a curriculum, but there is currently no way to sign off taskings in eServices.  The SQTR is literally blank.
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jacksmith60187
Suspended

Posts: 22
Unit: USSR-248

« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2012, 05:42:06 PM »

Eclipse, you are quite misinformed. Perhaps you aren't really a CAP member as I would expect that any real CAP member could have looked this up in eServices just as easily as I just did.

From eServices, Airborne Photographer has 9 F&P tasks, 10 advanced tasks and two exercise participation tasks. Along with prerequisites and commander approvals. But of course if you were qualified aircrew (but not a pilot) you would have known this.
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τε
Global Moderator

Posts: 795
Unit: PCR-CA-205

« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2012, 05:48:19 PM »

There is official training for AP. There is a task guide and SQTR. The SQTR is dated Mar 10, so it's been around for a while.

All of that is still draft, or at a minimum not properly implemented.

I know that NESA has a curriculum, but there is currently no way to sign off taskings in eServices.  The SQTR is literally blank.
You might want to check on things before you make such bold statements. I don't know how long it's been there but there most definitely is a full AP SQTR in eServices. I think it has been there for several months.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2012, 05:54:11 PM »

You might want to check on things before you make such bold statements. I don't know how long it's been there but there most definitely is a full AP SQTR in eServices. I think it has been there for several months.

UGH - it's ADIS that doesn't have the SQTR, not AP.

My mistake doesn't change this discussion. 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2012, 05:59:02 PM »

...I would expect that any real CAP member could have looked this up in eServices just as easily as I just did.

Just as a "real" CAP member would know that the maneuvers indicated in the OP are not standard procedure for CAP.
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jacksmith60187
Suspended

Posts: 22
Unit: USSR-248

« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2012, 06:02:25 PM »

You might want to check on things before you make such bold statements. I don't know how long it's been there but there most definitely is a full AP SQTR in eServices. I think it has been there for several months.

UGH - it's ADIS that doesn't have the SQTR, not AP.

My mistake doesn't change this discussion.

UGH - from your 15,000 postings, I don't think anyone would ever be able to tell you anything.

UGH.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »

15,193.

Thank you very much.
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2012, 06:12:27 PM »

Suppose it gets asked of the STAN/EVAL guys AND the CFIs on the other forum. Would that be OK?
No

Why not?
We should keep our dirty laundry in house.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »

...I would expect that any real CAP member could have looked this up in eServices just as easily as I just did.

Just as a "real" CAP member would know that the maneuvers indicated in the OP are not standard procedure for CAP.
I don't doubt that the OP and the person on the other forum was taught that.

CAP does not do a good job of QCing their training....the resources, regs and policies are there....and we all know that members violate them all the time.

Okay......it is our duty to report them up the chain of command.  We should keep it in house......until we have exhalsted all interal channels before going out side.

I don't think it is trolling...I think it was someone who was exposed to something outside their comfort zone and experince...so the sought advice....all well and good......but he should have sought that advice with in CAP channels.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
jacksmith60187
Suspended

Posts: 22
Unit: USSR-248

« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2012, 06:34:15 PM »

Well, I can just wonder what would have happened if it was brought to Eclipse' attention...
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,249

« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2012, 06:41:40 PM »

Well, I can just wonder what would have happened if it was brought to Eclipse' attention...

The specific issue would have been addressed immediately and directly.

The aircrew would have been interviewed, and if the circumstances warranted it, disciplinary action taken as appropriate, up to and including
grounding the pilot and requiring remedial training and possibly a new F5/91.

Discreetly, professionally, and not posted in a forum.

What would you suggest?

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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2012, 07:07:53 PM »

Well, I can just wonder what would have happened if it was brought to Eclipse' attention...
He would have forwarded up the chain.  I disagree on a lot of his stances....but I have no doubt about his integrity nor his ability to follow up and admit when he is wrong.....as he did in this place.

Continued attacks on his character are not going to win you any point here.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
bflynn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 748

« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2012, 10:52:28 PM »

The OP wrote that "[He] was taught this maneuver at a day long training session for AP. 'Nuff said." and also that  " we were down low, we were slow and we were banking tight to get a good view of the target. . . . This was official training, so it is going on in at least part of our organization."

So he was there and this did happen and the OP claims it was official training.

I've heard of the maneuver described before.  But it was never intended to be a 60 degree bank, nor ever performed at low altitude.  And it's outside of 60-1 to fly at 500' for a photo mission.

In any case, on the original topic - why do you all think this member felt it necessary to ask other pilots this question rather than asking in house?  I didn't take that his intent was to denigrate CAP, other than he knew a pilot who, in his opinion, was flying dangerously.  Yet, he hesistated to call knock it off...why?

That's a rhetorical question...the reason is that we still have work to do on making a safety culture primary in flight crews.
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RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 492

« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 08:52:10 AM »


In any case, on the original topic - why do you all think this member felt it necessary to ask other pilots this question rather than asking in house?  I didn't take that his intent was to denigrate CAP, other than he knew a pilot who, in his opinion, was flying dangerously.  Yet, he hesistated to call knock it off...why?

Fear of retailiaton and the Infamous 2B perhaps?

The USCG Auxiliary's last fatal crash, about 10 years ago, involved a pilot known to be dangerous to the air crews but no one reported him. Why? He controlled all the flight assignments for the district. He was 'in' if not part of the Auxie Sky Gods (how they saw themselves) who ruled the Auxie District air program at the time. New air crew were warned to stay away from him, which is how the crews protected themselves. Althouhg the Aux does not have the eqivalent of a 2B, complaining about the errant pilot would have gotten you no where, several tried it and found themselves without air assingments.

It took the Sky God 'buying the farm' to bring the reign of the Sky Gods to an end - at least for a while.

And part of what he did and other Sky Gods in the Aux did was fly below 500', a direct violation of the program rules. So I don't have a problem believing what the CAP member reported was true and understand why he posted it where he did.
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,654

« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 12:12:12 PM »

I'm with you....I understand the why......it was still wrong.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
West_Coast_Guy
Member

Posts: 62

« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2012, 12:49:15 PM »

We should keep our dirty laundry in house.

Is that an appropriate attitude for a taxpayer-funded organization?
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West_Coast_Guy
Member

Posts: 62

« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2012, 12:58:08 PM »

I'm with you....I understand the why......it was still wrong.

How do you feel about discussing such issues on Captalk.net?
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RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,621
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2012, 01:01:05 PM »

We should keep our dirty laundry in house.

Is that an appropriate attitude for a taxpayer-funded organization?
Yes.
The army NCOs said: Don't let the bs hit the brass. And they are completely taxpayer funded. We aren't.

There is a time and place for taking things externally, from all evidence here, it should have been kept in house.
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GRW 3340
jacksmith60187
Suspended

Posts: 22
Unit: USSR-248

« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2012, 01:22:48 PM »

We should keep our dirty laundry in house.

Is that an appropriate attitude for a taxpayer-funded organization?

No, it isn't.

As a pilot, I can say that CAP has a lot of good CFIs - but it most certainly does not have all of the best. It is completely appropriate for this person to ask piloting related questions of expert flight instructors wherever they may be. The OP's post was a completely legitimate attempt to get professional opinions as a reference point of comparison with what he had apparently been told by CAP.

I will take the opinions of red board CFIs over non-pilot "qualified aircrew" any day. 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:27:33 PM by jacksmith60187 » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: "We have met the enemy and it is Us"
 


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