member participation

[NCRblues]

I have been looking and I have come up short...

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Can a unit commander deny members of said unit from going to/participating in, say, an ES weekend or a cadet NCO academy held in another squadron or at the group or wing level.

(I am not just talking about cadets who are problem cadets or something like that. I am talking about squadron wide ban on participation)


Is their regulatory guidance on this anywhere? (I have yet to see it and I am still looking).

I am sure most of you will say yes they can limit cadet/senior participation at other locations, but what I am wondering is... Is this regulatory mandated permission, or is this just the way it's always been done?

[Eclipse]

Your CC is responsible for everything you do, and has full authority to deny participation at any activity, that's part of "Command authority".

The unit CC is the person who (is supposed to) know(s) best and nearest whether a member is prepared and qualified to participate in a given activity.  There was a time when everything outside the unit required specific permission, but a lot of wings have moved away from that.  I would argue that if a given wing doesn't require specific permission for participation, certainly the unit CC is well within his authority to
deny permission (while providing justification) as he sees fit.

I'm having a related argument now in regards to ES.  My position is that Unit CC's should be explicitly aware of, and approve, all activities
of a member, including ES.  My counter is arguing that ES is essentially a "separate chain of command" that members agree to when they get qualified.

I saw "um...no", since a unit CC is going to be responsible for remediation is the member has "issues" during a mission or training.  This is unresolved as of today.

[NCRblues]

Your CC is responsible for everything you do, and has full authority to deny participation at any activity, that's part of "Command authority".

The unit CC is the person who (is supposed to) know(s) best and nearest whether a member is prepared and qualified to participate in a given activity.  There was a time when everything outside the unit required specific permission, but a lot of wings have moved away from that.  I would argue that if a given wing doesn't require specific permission for participation, certainly the unit CC is well within his authority to
deny permission (while providing justification) as he sees fit.

I'm having a related argument now in regards to ES.  My position is that Unit CC's should be explicitly aware of, and approve, all activities
of a member, including ES.  My counter is arguing that ES is essentially a "separate chain of command" that members agree to when they get qualified.

I saw "um...no", since a unit CC is going to be responsible for remediation is the member has "issues" during a mission or training.  This is unresolved as of today.

I am not saying I disagree at all. I just wanted to know if this is backed up in "CAPR XX-XX" or "CAPP XX".

So what it seems you are saying is that no it's not written down, it's just generally accepted that squadron commanders have that power.

[FW]

^Yes.  However, if the member is qualified to participate and, there is an invitation to particiapate, it would be difficult for a unit commander to justify prohibiting them from attending a group or wing activity.  Also, to prohibit a qualified member from participating in another squadron's activity may be hard to justify. 

IMHO, the correct thing is to keep unit commanders "in the loop" if permissions are not required. I doubt any sq/cc would prohibit a qualified member in good standing from attending an authorized activity in CAP at any level.

There is no reference in any regulation which governs this except where an activity requires Sq/CC permission.  This is a command authority decision; which may be subject to higher authority review.

[NCRblues]

Ok, thanks gentlemen

[Extremepredjudice]

Off topic: Just wondering, is there a cite on the SQ/CC needing to give a reason?

[Eclipse]

Off topic: Just wondering, is there a cite on the SQ/CC needing to give a reason?

That's just common courtesy, not to mention CYA.

A unit CC who off-handedly denies permission for something without providing at least a 1/2-baked reason, is almost certainly going to here from at least the next highest echelon.

Commanders don't necessarily have to justify every decision to subordinates, but good leaders usually explain things, one way or another.

[spacecommand]

You should always let your commander in the loop on what you are doing especially activities outside the scope of regular unit activities.   

There really isn't any good reason for a Commander to deny a member to participate in a group or wing activity (if those events were open to them) and if said  member were qualified and in good standing.

They might have that "power" but it's really hard to find a Commander who would do such a thing without justifiable reasons, and as mentioned, they would be hearing from the next echelon up (Group or Wing) about it.

[MSG Mac]

Your Commander should be informed that you want to attend the event-That's also common courtesy. If the cadet is injured or gets into trouble it's the local commander that has to answer for that one cadet. Any CAPF 31 or even F17 should have the Commander's signature. There may also be a reason that he doesn't want to allow participation. Give him the chance to make that decision 95% of the time he'll give permission. The other 5% he may have good reason not to.

[jeders]

I can't cite anything on the national level. However, in TXWG there was a supplement to 62-1 that required a safety letter signed by the commander for ANY activity outside of weekly meetings and missions. I don't remember if the supplement is still in place, but the practice is.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well in my wing on the ES side for actual mission it's a general page to everyone (who wants to be included), and they deal directly with the IC, so the wing has already determined that the subordinate commanders (unless they have officially suspended the member) have no say in ES response/participation.

Also in my wing for upcoming ES training exercise, personnel can also go directly to the IC or appropriate branch directors for the exercise and let them know they are willing to participate.

Other activities of other squadron's e.g. banquets, camp outs, airport visits, normally meetings -- I guess it would all depend upon perhaps the total time involved (overnight) & potential risk/safety concerns, more than anything else and whether it was a cadet (getting permission slips) or senior member participating.    Generally, I don't think most members would mind letting their appropriate commander know.  Of course if the member is scouting out a potential new squadron to transfer to, than they might not want to mention anything until they make the decision to transfer (and why get anyone upset, because the member may also decide to stay where they are)
RM         

[Patterson]

Commanders (at all levels) must always keep themselves aware of where and what their subordinates are doing.

The majority of CAP Members are assigned to a Squadron.  They are responsible to their Squadron Commander.  If the Squadron Commander does not want a member participating in an activity, they don't participate. 

This is not a tough concept to understand. 

[NCRblues]

Commanders (at all levels) must always keep themselves aware of where and what their subordinates are doing.

The majority of CAP Members are assigned to a Squadron.  They are responsible to their Squadron Commander.  If the Squadron Commander does not want a member participating in an activity, they don't participate. 

This is not a tough concept to understand.

Thank you for the attitude.

Not a single person said it was a hard concept to understand, you must fancy yourself the master of all things understood.


If you would have read the thread you would have seen that I agree, but wanted to know if this was backed up by written regulations (its not as has been pointed out several times now).

[Private Investigator]

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Same thing IMHO.

When I was CC I would not approve every Tom, Dick and Harry who wanted a CAP Vehicle License either.

[Spaceman3750]

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Same thing IMHO.

When I was CC I would not approve every Tom, Dick and Harry who wanted a CAP Vehicle License either.

Well, since most of our members are Tom, Dick, and Harry, I'm surprised you had any licensed drivers at all. I mean, if someone has a vehicular homicide maybe giving them a license is a bad idea but we've all had a ticket or accident at some point in our life.

NCRBlues, just jump across the river, where all the cool kids are  .

[Private Investigator]

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Same thing IMHO.

When I was CC I would not approve every Tom, Dick and Harry who wanted a CAP Vehicle License either.

Well, since most of our members are Tom, Dick, and Harry, I'm surprised you had any licensed drivers at all. I mean, if someone has a vehicular homicide maybe giving them a license is a bad idea but we've all had a ticket or accident at some point in our life.

So how many times will you let a senior member burn rubber in the parking lot? How about the man who drives recklessly to a meeting, I suppose you do not question him and just look the other way.

I was a cop for 25 years and I speak my peace. In NCO School they call it moral courage. Like I will let somebody, regardless of age, who is foolish, drive a vehicle or fly a plane I am responsible for? Stay in CAP long enough and you will meet the people I talk about.

[Spaceman3750]

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Same thing IMHO.

When I was CC I would not approve every Tom, Dick and Harry who wanted a CAP Vehicle License either.

Well, since most of our members are Tom, Dick, and Harry, I'm surprised you had any licensed drivers at all. I mean, if someone has a vehicular homicide maybe giving them a license is a bad idea but we've all had a ticket or accident at some point in our life.

So how many times will you let a senior member burn rubber in the parking lot? How about the man who drives recklessly to a meeting, I suppose you do not question him and just look the other way.

I was a cop for 25 years and I speak my peace. In NCO School they call it moral courage. Like I will let somebody, regardless of age, who is foolish, drive a vehicle or fly a plane I am responsible for? Stay in CAP long enough and you will meet the people I talk about.

After almost 5 years in CAP (3 senior 2 cadet) I have yet to see the idiots of which you speak. Must be something in the water supply...

[rustyjeeper]

Well in my wing on the ES side for actual mission it's a general page to everyone (who wants to be included), and they deal directly with the IC, so the wing has already determined that the subordinate commanders (unless they have officially suspended the member) have no say in ES response/participation.

Also in my wing for upcoming ES training exercise, personnel can also go directly to the IC or appropriate branch directors for the exercise and let them know they are willing to participate.

Other activities of other squadron's e.g. banquets, camp outs, airport visits, normally meetings -- I guess it would all depend upon perhaps the total time involved (overnight) & potential risk/safety concerns, more than anything else and whether it was a cadet (getting permission slips) or senior member participating.    Generally, I don't think most members would mind letting their appropriate commander know.  Of course if the member is scouting out a potential new squadron to transfer to, than they might not want to mention anything until they make the decision to transfer (and why get anyone upset, because the member may also decide to stay where they are)
RM       

Radioman-
I also am in your Wing and I dont think the current system works to well do you really?
Around 50% of the Wing's members use their Wing email at best and very FEW cadets do in my experience. If we want to get serious about ES and Sarex's etc we need to rethink how we communicate- particularly if we want cadet involvement.
What good does it do for a cadet to commit before he/she knows their unit will be able to participate?
A better system would be to have each unit's ES officer be contacted and forward a listing of participants to the IC- this would add some organization into chaos and also inform a unit commander of who wanted to participate since the SC needs to approve utilization of a van/ so far as I am concerned everytime I see a Wing email asking for support it goes into a black hole and no one ever learns more until the day of the event which is NOT a good method of knowing who is where or doing what.
Ultimately a Squadron Commander should( if nothing else as a courtesy) know where his or her people are BEFORE they go- do you disagree?

[ol'fido]

Cadet or senior, if you are participating in another unit's activity or attending their meeting, you should get permission from the host unit commander and your own unit commander and each should know that the other approves. This is good sense and common courtesy. Also, each of the unit commanders have the power to veto participation. They should only veto if they have a specific concern and that should be communicated to the member and where appropriate the other unit commander. Arbitrarily prohibiting a member from attending an activity at another unit "just because" is well within a unit commander's perogative but is not a practice that I would attribute to a good leader and confident commander.

On the ES side of the house: When I was a unit commander, I wanted to know if somebody in my unit, cadet or senior, but especially cadet, was being called on to go to a mission somewhere. I usually had no problem with it but I still wanted to know. If something happened to the cadet, the parents were going to call me and not the wing DO. It would be really embarassing to have to answer a parent with "I didn't know they were at a mission". In recent years, we have gotten away from the concept of unit patticipation in missions. The wing held two or three missions a year and the whole unit went. If you were a GT, the whole unit made up the GT, and you probably stuck together for the whole mission. If you weren't the GT, you might be here or you might be there but your CC knew you were there and had a reasonably good idea of what you were doing. Although we have had many improvements in our technology and we have more standardized training, that is one area that has gone completely down the tubes. Whole unit participation should be the norm not a "that would be really nice".

[Private Investigator]

So, I know that a commander's permission for an encampment or NCSA is required....but...

What about local weekend activities hosted by another squadron or even group or wing level?

Same thing IMHO.

When I was CC I would not approve every Tom, Dick and Harry who wanted a CAP Vehicle License either.

Well, since most of our members are Tom, Dick, and Harry, I'm surprised you had any licensed drivers at all. I mean, if someone has a vehicular homicide maybe giving them a license is a bad idea but we've all had a ticket or accident at some point in our life.

So how many times will you let a senior member burn rubber in the parking lot? How about the man who drives recklessly to a meeting, I suppose you do not question him and just look the other way.

I was a cop for 25 years and I speak my peace. In NCO School they call it moral courage. Like I will let somebody, regardless of age, who is foolish, drive a vehicle or fly a plane I am responsible for? Stay in CAP long enough and you will meet the people I talk about.

After almost 5 years in CAP (3 senior 2 cadet) I have yet to see the idiots of which you speak. Must be something in the water supply...

Its like horseplay, its fun until somebody loses an eye. If I was in only one Squadron forever I will not see any differences. Visit another Squadron and you will see differences. Go to a Squadron when you are on vacation out of state and drop by and say "hi". See if you notice anything.