HMRS Question???

[ck4]

I have a slot to HMRS and I am also attending NESA and need to know if when I leave hawk I will have any GTM certification or GTM3 or GTM2 because I am not going to pay for both weeks of NESA for something I will already have. It says on the HMRS website that you work through GTM3 and maybe 2 but doesn't say that you will be signed off on everything. Thanks in advance.

[Nathan]

Check out the requirements for Ranger 3rd and 2nd Class at Hawk Mountain: http://www.pawg.cap.gov/hawk_mountain

From my understanding, the primary goal at Hawk is to get these done. I cannot open the files from work, but if it is the same situation as it was a few years ago, the Hawk requirements match up with some, but not all of the CAP GTM requirements. Hawk also spend time training for skills not required for any GTM rating. My squadron had people come back from Hawk who were knowledgeable enough to finish up their training at the squadron, but they did not leave Hawk with a ground team badge.

Also, you might want to consider that getting signed off on ground team tasks requires a GTM with SET to actually observe you doing the tasks (or, in some cases, quizzing you on the knowledge). Though I have not attended Hawk, I am not under the impression that they spend any time actually signing off paperwork for the GTM ratings. So even if you come back from Hawk with a rating that says you know how to set up a tent, you will still have to demonstrate that skill to a GTM back home before you can get signed off on it. Just because Hawk says you can do it doesn't mean that their word is good enough for a CAP GTM classification.

So the short of it is that if you want to be guarenteed to go on missions when you get home (provided you pass the training), go to NESA. Hawk will teach you many of the same skills, but unless things have changed drastically in the two years I was inactive in CAP, a Hawk rating will not make you "qualified" to do anything as far as CAP is concerned.

[sarmed1]

Every effort is made to sign of GTM skills as they match up to equivilent Ranger skills.  (at the GTM3 and 2 they are almost identical to R/3 and R2).
Some of the skills are mismatched (ie there are a few GTM3 skills that arent covered until R\1.....dont know why, pointed out the disconnect to the Stan-Eval folks, they are working on it)
HMRS is not (currently, but it has/is being worked on) setup to approve GTM completion in E-serviceslike NESA; so basically showup with the prereqs complete, HMRS will electronically sign off on completed tasks, go home (call home) and have your commander sign off as complete (if you get everything done)... last year students walked out with hard copies of either completed 101 sqtr's or at least ones signed off for what they had completed. 

Important note:  If you want to get it done you need to be proactive.   Waiting for the staff to solve your needs (teaching or testing) and/or waiting until Saturday to tell them its not done will get you no where.  Remember, you are one of likely 30-40 cadets in a squadron.... some of which have never been away from home, never been in the woods, dont have more than one unifrom or have boots that fit better than 2 hours once a week.... in other words staff may be busy solving "bigger"problems while still trying toget the school specific objectives complete.  Most staff are more than happy to help you by teaching, tutoring or testing.  Just not at the last minute (like anywhere actually)

mk

[ck4]

My squadron is rather small 10-15 cadets and maybe 15 seniors and no one is GTM rated thats why I am trying to go and get my GTM1 this summer I am attending both NCSA's but there is no reason to pay for the advanced and basic course of NESA if i will already have the rating i could do the advanced and the first responders course at NESA instead and learn new skills instead of something I will already have...

[Nathan]

I don't think you're going to be able to get to GT1 this summer if you're starting off without any GTM rating.

When I went through one week of NESA, I got to GTM 3. Some people stayed for the second week and may have gotten to GTM 2, but I'm not sure.

But even considering sarmed1's post, I would not count on the ability to get a GTM 3 rating at Hawk. You MAY get the skills that could get you signed off, but you would still need someone to actually sign those off (which is kinda the point of NESA). NESA basically ensures that if you pass the course, you're leaving with a GTM qualification.

[sarmed1]

You will not likely get GTM1 out of HMRS in a basic squadron assignment. GTM3 for sure, GTM2 likely if you are proactive and know the material (at least book info beforehand)

mk

[ck4]

I am attending both school I just needed to know if when i left hawk mountain i would have GTM3 if I was going to there would be no reason to pay for both weeks of NESA

[RogueLeader]

Punctuation please. It makes your posts so much easier to read and understand. You MAY get your GTM3 done at hawk, but it is not always done.  I would advise that you go to nesa for both weeks and forget hmrs.

[ck4]

I AM going to both. Your opinions of the school is not what I was inquiring about on this thread. I needed a simple question answered. For some reason I knew this thread would turn into an opinion thread about hawk.

[sarmed1]

....... For some reason I knew this thread would turn into an opinion thread about hawk.

They always do....no matter how simple the question or well intended the info request....they always do.....

As entertaining the discussions usually end up; if you dont want to spark a flame war/troll feeding session, use the search feature and find someone who seems to know about HMRS and PM them...safer in the long run

mk

[Nathan]

I AM going to both. Your opinions of the school is not what I was inquiring about on this thread. I needed a simple question answered. For some reason I knew this thread would turn into an opinion thread about hawk.

Dude, there was no opinion there. What you wanted to know is whether or not Hawk would get you GTM 3.

We are all basically saying, "Maybe, but maybe not. There's no way to know. If you want to be sure you get GTM 3, then sign up for the basic NESA course."

If that's not the answer you want to hear, tough noogies. Nobody has given any opinion on the quality of Hawk, just that it isn't designed to get you a GTM badge, and therefore it would be a bad idea to try to sign up for an advanced course at NESA hoping that Hawk MIGHT get you a GTM rating.

[Cool Mace]

I AM going to both. Your opinions of the school is not what I was inquiring about on this thread. I needed a simple question answered. For some reason I knew this thread would turn into an opinion thread about hawk.

I don't see anywhere on this thread where it became opinion based. Every response was in line with the question you asked. They answered it, end of story. No reason for you to get upset.

[sarmed1]

Cadet Basic Course
During this first year course, students will gain hands-on experience in woodsmanship skills, equipment, navigation, team mobility, search operations, crash site procedures and survival skills, including killing and preparation of small wild game. Cadets will have an opportunity to rappel on our 60+ foot tower. Cadets will practice their newly learned skills during several search simulations and spend three days away from base camp on a field training exercise. The field training will include extensive hiking with full 72-hour gear. Students will train through the Ranger 3rd & GTM 3 and have the opportunity to reach Ranger 2nd Class & GTM 2.

From the web site (bold mine). Sounds pretty much like you will get trained (and assumingly so test) GTM3 and maybe GTM2.   There is no guaruntee of pass (but thats on you I would think regardless of HMRS or NESA)....

Punctuation please. It makes your posts so much easier to read and understand. You MAY get your GTM3 done at hawk, but it is not always done.  I would advise that you go to nesa for both weeks and forget hmrs.

I think that last line is where the "opinion"perception is coming from (initally I read it that way too, but on repeat, I can see its more of a reccomendation not an opinion)

mk

[ck4]

Yes that is where I got that. I'm sorry thanks for that observation.

[phillybiker]

We do our very best to sign off your sqtrs. If you have no GTM quals before you go to hawk you should be able to complete your gtm 3 during a basic course. Every skill is taught and preformed during the school. YOU MUST MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR SQTR SIGNED. YOU MUST KEEP YOUR SQTR SAFE AND DRY. I swear students eat their testing sheets.
Also this is what holds back the students. Your home sqdn commander must sign the begining of your sqtr stating that you are ready to test. To test for gtm3 you need to have passed the following.
Cap online test 116, cap online test 117 (all three sections) Fema ICS100, have on you a current basic first aid/cpr card and a basic Roa card, finally a printed copy of your 101 card showing your GES.
I hope this answers your question. Without the items completed in the above paraghraph neither school will be able to complete your gtm training. However they will be able to sign you off for the tasks you completed.

[MSG Mac]

I AM going to both. Your opinions of the school is not what I was inquiring about on this thread. I needed a simple question answered. For some reason I knew this thread would turn into an opinion thread about hawk.

You asked if you could reach GT 1 from Hawk Mountain. Several responses have told you that it is highly unlikely and that your best option is to attend both courses at NESA, rather than splitting your time between the two. It's also been mentioned that Hawk may not even have the ability to sign off on the quals, only prepare for the sign off. NESA can do the quals and sign offs. Do the math, Do all the training at NESA.

[Ed Bos]

We have had students sign up for 2 weeks of the NESA GSAR program, and show up already done with GTM3. Some time between their application and their arrival they completed that training.

There are several opportunities for additional training at NESA, so if you arrive and have GTM3 signed off, we have been able to accommodate that in the past.

FWIW, if someone arrives and has GTM3 "almost done" then they get the privilege of additional practice and the opportunity to help their classmates through the basic course.

[phillybiker]

Btw, the staff at HMRS has the ability to sign off all SQTRs in the  GSAR section of ES training. But you must complete your prerequisites training prior to the schools. Cross your T's and dot your I's.