New 39-1 ICL today

[a2capt]

Because in CAWG, it has been asserted a number of times that Ground Team Members aren't allowed to wear their grade.

On the CalTrans look-alike uniform, yes. Grade can not be worn.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

OK...say we've got Oldfart Composite Squadron 999, composed of Geritol Flight and Youngun Flight.

Lieutenant Colonel Jack Greybeard, CC Oldfart Composite Squadron 999, has a majority of members in Geritol Flight who can wear the AF uniform if they so desire, and a handful of members who cannot due to H/W and/or grooming restrictions.

Lt. Col. Greybeard himself cannot, because he's indulged in too many Big Macs over the years and he has a ZZ Top beard.  He wishes he could, but regs are regs.  Lt. Col. Greybeard thinks the regs are stupid, but he knows that he cannot change them.

But because he is angry that he cannot wear the AF uniform, he issues an order that ALL members of Geritol Flight, regardless of H/W or grooming standards, are to wear nothing but polo shirts and grey pants, grey/white aviators with ribbons for semidress and blazer for formal, and BBDU's only for utility uniform.  The Lt. Col. says that anyone not a member of Youngun Flight showing up wearing AF blue or BDU's is out of uniform and repeated violations will result in 2B.

I know this is an extreme example but...yes or BS?

[Eeyore]

^ Sounds like an abuse of authority complaint to me.

[Eclipse]

I know this is an extreme example but...yes or BS?

By regulation, yes.

[jeders]

... he issues an order that ALL members of Geritol Flight, regardless of H/W or grooming standards, are to wear nothing but polo shirts and grey pants...

I know this is an extreme example but...yes or BS?

Actually it sounds like something that a CT regular has already ordered with little or no balking from members of his squadron.

[Eclipse]

I believe that a random local yokel commander telling (for instance) a GTL to take off the GTL badges is wrong and breaks this portion of the regulation you just linked -  " will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."

Removing a badge is hardly "unreasonable".

I believe the spirit of that is to avoid imposing UOD's which cause an undue financial or other pressure on a member, limiting a banquet to only
members with Mess Dress, or an awards ceremony to only members with jackets, etc.

But there are already precedents where NHQ had limited or changed who can wear what they've "earned".

As an example, you earned the IC badge, but you can't wear your GTL badge, too.  You earned your observer wings, but you can't wear them, and you
pilot wings and your military wings. (etc.)

There are members with 5 master ratings, and are limited to wearing only one badge.

I don't think this was ever about badges, but what have you.

[NCRblues]

I see it differently... That which is not required is optional.  You may not be required to wear that which is optional, but a commander may also restrict the wear of optional items for purposes of uniformity, to include patches, badges etc.

Actually eclipse, the thread did take a turn for patches and badges

And I am not talking about forcing members to follow the pre outlined regulations about number of badges. I am talking about commanders forcing members to take off patches or badges that the member earned fair and have placed proper on the uniform.

For an example, a squadron commander saying to a member that because this is a cadet activity you must take off your GTL badge. Or a flying club commander demanding someone take off the GBD badge.

^this is wrong IMO, but some on here feel they have a right to do that.

[ol'fido]

I don't have any specific issues with this ICL, but.....

If the move to online regulations, manuals, forms, etc. was supposed to reduce the paper and make updating regulations easier and more streamlined, why do we issue ICLs instead of just going in a making the changes? It seems that when we had paper the changes came out regularly and without need for temporary changes(ICLs).

On the badges issue, I read the reg to say that if a commander wishes to dictate a particular uniform  TYPE, he may do so. That means he can specify blues, BDUs, etc or their corporate equivalents for those not eligible to wear the AF unis. As long as the uniform itself is not in violation, I can't see where he has any other control. Plus, most CCs with half a lick of sense will not try to dictate that you can't wear "that badge" because I say so.

[jimmydeanno]

Because online regarding, etc still require National Board approval to change them according to our current governance model. 

[Private Investigator]

Uniform of the Day. I really do not have a problem with that. But ...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

... he issues an order that ALL members of Geritol Flight, regardless of H/W or grooming standards, are to wear nothing but polo shirts and grey pants...

I know this is an extreme example but...yes or BS?

Actually it sounds like something that a CT regular has already ordered with little or no balking from members of his squadron.

I can guess who that may be...but I won't.

And to me the situation I concocted is a good recipe for a lot of potential members to not join, and existing members to seek pastures new.

Asking a member not to wear a GT badge on blues/aviators, yes...but to remove it from B/BDU's where it's sewn on?  Kooky.

[LC]

Does the smurf hat still fall under commander decision? Or will we now see squadron elites rocking their berets to every BDU meeting?

Since when does the color of a blue beret look like papa smurf?



Also, I would love to see someone tell me take my patches off.

[RickFranz]

I find all this talk of uniformity kind of funny...

Since there is not one uniform all of our members can wear.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yeah, that's half the fun!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Oh but then wait for it... You are going to get told... "Yes there is, everyone can wear the white and greys."

[SarDragon]

I find all this talk of uniformity kind of funny...

Since there is not one uniform all of our members can wear.

Oh but then wait for it... You are going to get told... "Yes there is, everyone can wear the white and greys."

Actually, there's been one around for over fifty years - the blazer.

Is it a great uniform? That's a matter of opinion. It's certainly the only formal one I can wear.

But, like it or not, it fits the bill that Rick presents.

[lordmonar]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

+1

Local commanders don't get to countermand regulation because they don't like X.

Ah, but they can.  Commanders can and do set the UOD for the activity.  We see this stuff all the time, but perhaps don't realize it.  A prominent example: The commander for COS sets the UOD as blues with no ribbons.  Ribbons are fully authorized for those cadet officers, but the commander of the activity is directing that, for uniformity purposes, none of them will wear any at the activity on their blues shirts. Ribbons are no different than patches, tabs, headgear, etc.  They're optional attachments to the uniform.

Uh, no...

A pilot who has GTL and wings on can not be made to take off his GTL badge on the BDUs because a random activity director or commander does not like GT things... sorry does not work that way. National, including everyone's boss, the national commander says I can wear those patches on my BDU's to all events.

Feel free to set the uniform of the day. Change the ribbons on or off, that's fine, but you can not force a member to rip off a patch that is sewn onto BDUs because you believe you are king of your little CAP country and that is setting a UNIFORM of the day....

Like I said....did not think it was good thing or a bad thing....but it is completely within the authority of THE COMMANDER.
I am sorry it does work that way.
Now.....this is completely theoritical because no one would ever go this far....but it is within the scope of authority.

Period, simple, end of discussion.

Now...like all things......one may have the authority to do something....but that does not make it right.

Just like the thread about the make up assignment for missing the safety day.....That commander had all the authority to do what he did....but you can still take it up the chain of command if you beleive he is abusing that authority.

So....like I said......local command has the authority to make wear/don't wear calls over optional badges.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Oh but then wait for it... You are going to get told... "Yes there is, everyone can wear the white and greys."

Of course.  That's the direction some of our membership are subtly (and some not-so-subtly) "guiding" us into for the following "reasons:"

They're cheap (Depends on where you buy them).
They won't get us in trouble with the Air Force (A CAP member can try to blag a salute in that just as much as in blues).
They're easy to take care of (Sure and I've seen some of our membership who look like they've slept in theirs).

Actually, there's been one around for over fifty years - the blazer.

The blazer and G/W don't even really fit the definition of "uniform."  There are no actual stipulations on cut, colour or fabric.

Any white shirt, as long as it has epaulettes for your rank slides, will do.
Any grey trousers, except for BDU-type, will do.
Any single-breasted suit jacket will do.

One can walk into Goodwill, Salvation Army, St. Vince's, etc., and walk out with that combo.

It may be convenient and cheap, but it is not "uniform."

[sarmed1]

Interesting that it says only the tabs earned at HMRS may be worn - meaning that if you got your "ranger grade" locally you can't wear it.

Technically they all are "earned" or more appropriately awarded by HMRS. You cant just complete the requirements at your squadron for an R3 and slap the tab on....a ratings order has to be generated by the Stan/Eval section from HMRS.

Literal translation though I guess if you didnt go to "an activity" you cant wear it.  That should be interesting; kind of like when there where places (legally) awarding GTL badges for advanced course completion without a cooresponding GTL 101......

mk

[sarmed1]

As far as authorizing of headgear by commanders it looksl like PA solved that problem.

Table 2-3, Item 6. Men's and Women's Battle Dress Uniforms
1. Added. When wearing the woodland BDU's, the only authorized headgear for all flights,
squadrons, and groups chartered under the Pennsylvania Wing is the orange baseball hat.

....there is an addition talking about HMRS staff and encampment/CLS specifc to those activites.....
also restricts to inside the wing boundries only unless approved by the wing commander where the activity takes place

now that supp was prior to this ICL (12/11), so I dont know if beret wear trumps that or not

mk