Composite Squadrons & Senior Squadrons At Same Location?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly the Vermont wing website
http://www.vtcap.org/squadrons/ Shows 2 geographic locations that have both a Composite Squadron & a Senior Squadron.   IF a composite squadron is suppose to have a training program also for senior members, why would a senior squadron at the same geographic location be necessary
RM

[Extremepredjudice]

I saw 2 cadet squadrons at the same location... On that slocate a squadron tool. They met on different days, so I guess they are separate entities.

[AngelWings]

Interestingly the Vermont wing website
http://www.vtcap.org/squadrons/ Shows 2 geographic locations that have both a Composite Squadron & a Senior Squadron.   IF a composite squadron is suppose to have a training program also for senior members, why would a senior squadron at the same geographic location be necessary
RM

Flying club for the senior squadron?

[Spaceman3750]

I saw 2 cadet squadrons at the same location... On that slocate a squadron tool. They met on different days, so I guess they are separate entities.

The Fort Myers, FL area has something like this. There are three cadet squadrons within the same general area (two in Cape Coral, one in Fort Myers). They are all attached to schools and serve the students of that particular school (at least one being a charter school).

[lordmonar]

Why do you ask?

Off the top of my head I can think of several ways that situaiton can happen.

I know of a location here in NVWG where three....yes three squadrons meet in the same facility.

How it comes about is sometimes a sorrid story full of drama.
Bottom line.....who cares?
If you got the room and you got the minimun numbers.......there is no law saying you can't have more then one squadron in any one area.

[JeffDG]

Interestingly the Vermont wing website
http://www.vtcap.org/squadrons/ Shows 2 geographic locations that have both a Composite Squadron & a Senior Squadron.   IF a composite squadron is suppose to have a training program also for senior members, why would a senior squadron at the same geographic location be necessary
RM

Could be historical.  They were at different locations and later colocated.

I know we have a composite squadron colocated with my senior squadron (in fact, we also house Group HQ)...different meeting nights sealed which one I joined.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Actually in Birmingham, Alabama we have two Squadrons One a Composite Sqdn the other a Senior Sqdn that meet on the same nights within 5 miles of each other.  But it was not always this way.  In TTBF (The time before Freeways) ther were three CAP Composite Squadrons in the Greater Birmingham Area.  These were Bham #1, Bham #7, and Bham #34.  One on the Eastern end of the city, one in the Southern part, and an Inner City/Western area.  In the 1960's and before it often took as much as 1 hour to drive from one Sqdn to the other.
Shifting population resulted in Bham #7 being disbanded and consolidated with Bham #34.  Throughout the late 60's, 70,s, and so on there was a great but lighthearted rivalry between the cadets of the two Birmingham Composite Squadrons.  However, in the 1990's declining enrollments resulted in the common sense solution of combining the cadets from the two squadrons into one, and Squadron 34 gave up it's cadets. 
At the same time this was all happening, Squadron 34 was having to move.  From a school in the 1960's to a National Guard Armory, and then the Good Folks at a local FBO gave the squadron a meeting place.  During all this time Birmingham Squadron #1, which was redesignated to Birmingham Sqdn #90 met at the local Air National Guard Base and has remained pretty stationary.
Birmingham Sqdn #34 retained it's Composite Squadron Designation, and there were several members attempting to revive the Cadet Program.  However, the SUI in 2010 resulted in a write up that resulted in the sqdn being redesignated as a Senior Sqdn.
Just a short history

[Woodsy]

Jacksonville, Florida had 3 squadrons (1 composite, 2 cadet) until about a year ago when one of the cadet squadrons shut down.  Then again, since Jacksonville is the largest city in land area in the lower 48, it's understandable.  I personally would not have joined if I had to drive 45 miles to the other squadron (I know a lot of people drive that and more and I'm not knocking it, but gas ain't cheap)  As of Now, I have my home squadron about 8 miles away, a cadet squadron 45 mins west, a senior squadron 45 mins north, a composite squadron 45 mins south, and about 3 other squadrons within 90 mins. 

That said, some composite squadrons meet on different nights for seniors and cadets, so what really is the difference? I personally don't think that is ideal, as the cadets then lose a lot of mentorship potential, but I understand that it sometimes becomes necessary due to a growing squadron and shrinking facilities. 

[Patterson]

Having separate Senior and Cadet Squadrons meeting on the Same evening at the same place I could understand (at the moment).  However, having multiple Cadet Squadrons meeting at the same location on separate evenings needs to be changed.  Unless the numbers are so huge....something just would not make sense about that. 

[arajca]

Having separate Senior and Cadet Squadrons meeting on the Same evening at the same place I could understand (at the moment).  However, having multiple Cadet Squadrons meeting at the same location on separate evenings needs to be changed.  Unless the numbers are so huge....something just would not make sense about that.

Why? Consider you have folks who can only meet on Mondays and folks who can only meet on Thrusdays. Which ones do tell to leave CAP? Sharing a facility makes it easier and spreads the sweat equity around.

[MSG Mac]

I remember talking to a NYWG member who told me that his Group and Squadrons all met in the same building each unit on a diffferent day. Can't recall if it was the Bronx or Manhatten Group.

[Private Investigator]

However, having multiple Cadet Squadrons meeting at the same location on separate evenings needs to be changed.  Unless the numbers are so huge....something just would not make sense about that.

I agree. Cadets once they get rank and a drivers license have in the past shopped around for Squadrons that will give them Command status or similar.

[Private Investigator]

Why? Consider you have folks who can only meet on Mondays and folks who can only meet on Thrusdays. Which ones do tell to leave CAP? Sharing a facility makes it easier and spreads the sweat equity around.

That is true for Seniors but not for Cadets. You will have Cadets go to the Squadron on Monday because they are easy and the Squadron meets on Thursday is by the book. When the Squadron on Monday gets tough about Rules, Regs, etc you will get transfers to the Thursday Squadron.

We all know Cadet Squadrons that have reputations both good and bad. Not judging just saying 

[lordmonar]

However, having multiple Cadet Squadrons meeting at the same location on separate evenings needs to be changed.  Unless the numbers are so huge....something just would not make sense about that.

Why?

Just playing devil's advocate here.....but what's the problem of having multiple squadrons using the same facilities?

[lordmonar]

However, having multiple Cadet Squadrons meeting at the same location on separate evenings needs to be changed.  Unless the numbers are so huge....something just would not make sense about that.

I agree. Cadets once they get rank and a drivers license have in the past shopped around for Squadrons that will give them Command status or similar.

And what is really wrong with that?  If they are not being fulfilled in their current squadron....why should they not shop around?  The alternitive is that drop out....who does that serve?

[Patterson]

^ Catering to certain groups is so very unrealistic for an organization like CAP.  Let's say two Squadrons met at the Same location, but one met Monday evening, the second met on Tuesday evening.
  Which one gets priority for resources?  Can Members be active in both units?  Do you conduct joint training.  When a member no longer likes the "Monday Squadron", do you allow a transfer to the "Tuesday Squadron"?  When you recruit, how do you bring people into the unit, do you put down the other Squadron?

There is no logical or justifiable reason to have Seperate Squadrons at the same location, meeting on different evenings.  Before that should ever be allowed to happen, if there is such a huge demand for two meeting nights, then one single Squadron should meet twice per week.

Also, if I approach your Squadron with a group of 15 prospective Cadets and 4 Prospective Cadets and ask to use your facility to begin my Squsdron and conduct meetings the night following your scheduled meetings, do you support me? 

I have heartburn over the fact that Senior and Cadet Squadrons exist and meet on the same night as eachother in some locations.  Those units need combined, the Seniors that want nothing to do with Cadets can still "keep away from them".   

[Eclipse]

There is no logical or justifiable reason to have Seperate Squadrons at the same location, meeting on different evenings.  Before that should ever be allowed to happen, if there is such a huge demand for two meeting nights, then one single Squadron should meet twice per week.

+1 Guaranteed there's "drama" as to why these things evolved.  Drama higher HQ should fix.

[RiverAux]

I think it would be more efficient to have a single squadron and just have multiple meeting nights.  Let people choose which meeting they go to.  No need to have two entirely separate administrative structures for them when one would do.

[lordmonar]

^ Catering to certain groups is so very unrealistic for an organization like CAP.  Let's say two Squadrons met at the Same location, but one met Monday evening, the second met on Tuesday evening.
  Which one gets priority for resources?

What resources?  Squadron A would get Squadron A's stuff and Squadron B would get Squadron's stuff.  If they are shareing other resources (besides faciliteis) then a simple scheduling system could be worked out.

"anyone who needs the building on the weekend must put it on the calandar, first come first serve".  That was easy.

Can Members be active in both units?

With commander's permission you can do that now.  Lots of people are active in more then one unit.  Mostly at the group and wing level....but I was a member of a Senior Squadron and offically posted as the liason the the cadet squadron (who met across town).  No harm not foul, so long as everyone is in the loop.

Do you conduct joint training.

Sure why not....in fact I would be worried that they were not.

When a member no longer likes the "Monday Squadron", do you allow a transfer to the "Tuesday Squadron"?

Sure...we do that now.  SM x does not like what Squadron A is doing he move over, Cadet Y did not get the leadership job he wanted he transfer.  Takes 30 seconds in E-sevices.  If the member is a discipline problem the loosing squadron commander does not have to approve the transfer....just like someon transfering to the next town over.

When you recruit, how do you bring people into the unit, do you put down the other Squadron?

Not quite sure what this means?  You would recruit in the normal way.

There is no logical or justifiable reason to have Seperate Squadrons at the same location, meeting on different evenings.  Before that should ever be allowed to happen, if there is such a huge demand for two meeting nights, then one single Squadron should meet twice per week.

Logical reason 1.  Squadron A used to meet across town...but they lose their facility for some reason.  It is a full up going concern. The cut the same deal that Squadron B got for their facility but on another night.  Squadron B is a full going concern....Why close down one of the squadrons?

Logical reason 2.  Squadron A was a composite squadron, it gets too big for the facility so it either can just meet on two nights...and the increase in leadership and paperwork that intails or it can split into a senior squadron and cadet squadron...still working together but independant of each other.

Also, if I approach your Squadron with a group of 15 prospective Cadets and 4 Prospective Cadets and ask to use your facility to begin my Squsdron and conduct meetings the night following your scheduled meetings, do you support me?

Yes.  Why would I not?  Assuming that you are not poaching my cadet leadership right the bat (and this happens when new cross town squadrons form all the time).  We are all CAP, you share the burden of maintaing the facility (if there is any) and I don't know why anyone would have any heart burn.  Even if it were one of those "We don't like the way you are running things.  So we are taking half the squadron and meeting on Wednesdays" sort of thing.....I a) Can't stop you and b) would probably be happy for you. 

I have heartburn over the fact that Senior and Cadet Squadrons exist and meet on the same night as eachother in some locations.  Those units need combined, the Seniors that want nothing to do with Cadets can still "keep away from them".

Again...why?  If Senior Squadron C has 20-30 members there is no need to for them to combin with Cadet Squadron D simply for the purpose of combining.  Span of control is an important leadership concept.  Sometime when things get too big you have to split them up.....just look at a typical USAF wing.

Some things are split by function...Civil engineers, Security Forces, Communications, Services, Logistics, Medical...those things are so big and so different they are split into different squadrons.  On the other hand.....the operations group has one operation support squadron and 2-4 flying squadrons.  They all do the same thing....why not just combine them?  They are too big.  It is easer to control four 100 man squadrons then one 400 man squadron.

Now....if you got some anemic 10 person senior squadron and some aemic 10 person cadet squadron....then maybe....just maybe....it may be time for group or wing to step in and combine them.  But then again....if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The "I don't want to deal with cadets" issue is another ball of wax that is fixed at the same group/wing level.  If Senior Squadron C is not supporting Cadet Squadron D then wing needs to fix that.....no matter where or when the two squadrons meet.

[lordmonar]

I think it would be more efficient to have a single squadron and just have multiple meeting nights.  Let people choose which meeting they go to.  No need to have two entirely separate administrative structures for them when one would do.

I don't think that is really true.

Once you got to different nights...then your admin guy has to be there all the time, the same for the commander, PD, and other staff officers.  Sometimes it may just be easier to just form two seperate units independant of each other.