Flight size

[Extremepredjudice]

At what point should you have 2 flights? Or 3

Is this a reasonable amount to split into multiple flights?
30ish for 2 flights, 15 per flight
45ish for 3 flights, 15 per flight

Or do you recommend 20 per flight?

[SarDragon]

I've seen 12 cadets split into two flights. If you have 3 additional cadets, you can have 2 flight commanders and a cadet commander, or some other variation if there aren't enough cadet officers. It depends on what your goal is for your intended structure.

[Extremepredjudice]

I've seen alot of things.

  I'm really trying to figure out what is recommended.. We only really have NCOs, (technically we have 3 officers, but only one shows up) so flight commanders are out.

[coudano]

you can go all the way up to 49 in a single flight.
4 elements x 12 members + a guide

You need to have at least 2 elements of 3 (plus a guide) to be a "flight"
THat's 7 total.

So as you can see there is plenty of "leeway" there,
for you to tailor things to suit your needs locally

CAP typically splits out flights at about 12-15 cadets at most encampments and activs that you go to
That limit may be imposed for all sorts of reasons, including building a desired staff structure
or even the number of beds available in a dorm/bay...

12 is also what i think of as an 'ideal' number for small group dynamics to form and apply,
it's enough but not too many.
That's a 3x4 (or a 2x6)  Throw a guide on there for a baker's dozen and you're good to go!

[Eclipse]

For encampment we've found that flights of 10-13 are generally where you want to fall, past 15 starts to become a control issue, especially for less
experienced line staff.

[Extremepredjudice]

Good to know, maybe we can form Charlie flight at my squadron (we have 47 cadets)

[Eclipse]

As said "it depends".

You don't want to pick an arbitrary number and then limit your cadets as they progress out of ranks, nor do you want to pick an arbitrary number which forces cadets to assume roles they are not prepared for.

[Extremepredjudice]

As said "it depends".

You don't want to pick an arbitrary number and then limit your cadets as they progress out of ranks, nor do you want to pick an arbitrary number which forces cadets to assume roles they are not prepared for.

I know

But it'd move cadets away from the NCOs that can't teach.

[coudano]

As said "it depends".

You don't want to pick an arbitrary number and then limit your cadets as they progress out of ranks, nor do you want to pick an arbitrary number which forces cadets to assume roles they are not prepared for.

Eh, no cadet in my squadron gets put into a position that they are 'prepared' for.
They learn by doing.  And by blowing it up.
About the time they figure it out, and get good and competent, they move on up to the next bigger and better job that they aren't prepared for, and the next batch gives it a whirl.

**Of course what I think you really mean is that you shouldn't be having C/A1C Snuffy out there as a flight sergeant just because "we have to have 3 flights" ...  "because we have 35 cadets".   Even if you have 35 cadets, if only one of them is an NCO, then one flight might be the right fit.  Keep your people assigned to phase appropriate roles, that I completely agree with.

The thing about your command structure, is that you can scale it up and down to meet the various needs of your squadron.  Right now maybe you have 40 cadets.  In 2 years it might be 22.  2 years later maybe back to 40.  A year after that possibly 65.  Or down to 12...  You can (and should) adjust your structure to meet your needs.  IDENTIFYING YOUR NEEDS (and priorities) is probably step one here, in deciding what structure to adopt.

Also keep in mind that when people usually talk about "how many flights we have", what they really mean is "how do we line up for formation".  There PROBABLY IS a difference between how you line up every week, and what the actual organizational structure (chain of command) is.  Another point worth considering is that you probably don't spend much more than 10-15 minutes a week in formation (if you do, you're doing it wrong).  So in light of the OTHER hour and forty five minutes (or more) of meeting time every week, who cares

[Eclipse]

**Of course what I think you really mean is that you shouldn't be having C/A1C Snuffy out there as a flight sergeant just because "we have to have 3 flights" ...  "because we have 35 cadets".   Even if you have 35 cadets, if only one of them is an NCO, then one flight might be the right fit.  Keep your people assigned to phase appropriate roles, that I completely agree with.

That's what I meant.

[Extremepredjudice]

**Of course what I think you really mean is that you shouldn't be having C/A1C Snuffy out there as a flight sergeant just because "we have to have 3 flights" ...  "because we have 35 cadets".   Even if you have 35 cadets, if only one of them is an NCO, then one flight might be the right fit.  Keep your people assigned to phase appropriate roles, that I completely agree with.

That's what I meant.

We have 10 NCOs. 1 chief, 2 MSgts, 3 or so TSgts, and the rest piled up at SSgt. 
4 have jobs, (shirt, 2 flt sgts. 1 assistant flt sgt.[5 if you want to count my job as the no authority element leader]) and the rest are unemployed... My stance is to find something for them to do. One obvious one is to appoint a new assistant flt sgt. Another is put more in charge of training the 1-4 mo. Old cadets that STILL CAN'T DO STATIONARY DRILL. Easy way to do that is add another flt sgt and assistant.

IMHO the number should be like 6.... But they promote "box-checkers"

Anyway, I'm trying to convince the wrong people.

Edited for case error...

[coudano]

If you crunch numbers (i have)
you may find that over time, in "healthy" squadrons,
regardless of the starting state (distribution of ranks)
the ratio of NCO's to Airmen approaches about 1:1.5

Which is hardly the "ideal" span of control for a 'usefully employed' NCO.
(Ideally I like to aim for about 5 phase 1 cadets per 1 NCO)

This is based largely upon the difference in lengths between phase 1 (7-8 months)
And Phase 2 (12 months, probably with some time slack in the last 2 or 3 achievements)
If your recruiting maintains a flat rate, and your retention is good, and your people advance reasonably, you ARE going to pool people in phase 2.  It's actually a mathematical certainty which you can work out if you care.

But as you said, 10 NCO's and 3 officers to what, 34 airmen.
Subtract out the chief for sure, and you've got 9:34
Which is 1:3.7
A little on the slim side, but not that bad.
Make your masters flight sergeants (supervisors of 1st line NCO's), and give your element leaders some actual supervisory responsibilities,
and you get 7:34 or almost 1:5.
That's more like it.

EVEN if you do that, if your 35 airmen continue to progress,
and you continue to keep your airman pool around 35 or so,
in a year or so,
you're going to wind up with 25 NCO's and 35 airmen (and like 7 phase 3 officers, if they dont all quit after the mitchell)(and 1 or 2 phase 4)

Squadrons that are not in this situation, will be, as they attain and sustain 'health'
MOST squadrons get thrown out of balance by changes in leadership, mass exodous of cadets for various reasons, or having not sustained 'health' long enough in the first place to get to this situation.
So that covers "most" units out there.

How do you deal with a few units that are "in it"?
Some possibilities:

1.  Pick "golden children" who get leadership positions and experience, while those who didn't get picked just go on up in stripes without necessarily gaining that experience.  Sux2bu.  Hey, it happens.

2.  Establish some sort of "rotation" where people rotate in and out of leadership positions to give everyone some exposure.

3.  Segment off your "non line" NCO's into a sort of "super squad" and probably have them responsible for phase 1 cadet training other than drill and uniform inspections (aerospace class, leadership class, test mentoring).  They might not have a span of 7 phase 1 cadets assigned under them, but they are working programs to improve all of the cadets at the squadron (probably including the other NCO's who ARE in line positions).  They might also be your performance color guard, or your cadet competition drill team, focusing on that rather than phase 1 cadet training.

4.  Some combination of the above.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, you just said everything (except for the numbers part) I've basically been trying to convince the leadership of. To be honest, if they don't listen for a year, (they haven't) than I just want to carve out my area, and run it the best I can. I thought maybe charlie flight will be that spot?

they don't listen (only one that does is our c/cc, and the SMs ignore him).... You are also assuming all the NCOs deserve their rank, and can be of use. Half of them aren't. One can't wear his uniform properly, another has chili all over his blues.

Mind if I steal parts of your post? 

[coudano]

steal the whole thing, i dont care

[Major Carrales]

Good to know, maybe we can form Charlie flight at my squadron (we have 47 cadets)

We have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie each having 8 or 9 cadets.  It is a good "leadership lab" of sorts as flight sgts and element leaders get to work within a controlled leadership structure.

Each flight makes a "guidon" out of felt and has a focus, these being extra curricular since the focus is on training, improving drill and practicing leadership.

[Extremepredjudice]

Good to know, maybe we can form Charlie flight at my squadron (we have 47 cadets)

We have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie each having 8 or 9 cadets.  It is a good "leadership lab" of sorts as flight sgts and element leaders get to work within a controlled leadership structure.

Each flight makes a "guidon" out of felt and has a focus, these being extra curricular since the focus is on training, improving drill and practicing leadership.

Do they each have an actual guidon, or do they switch off using a squadron one?

[coudano]

even if there is only one squadron guidon (actually that's the way it "should be") each flight should have a guide.

[CT074CC]

I could be wrong here, but in my 12 years of CAP, I've never had an "assistant flight sergeant" or anything resembling it.  However, I've had element leaders - is that what we're talking about, element leaders?  Maybe they updated the regs since last time I checked?

[lordmonar]

Any unit can modify the structure to fit their needs.

Got a big enough flight that needs an assitant flight sergeant....appoint him.  He can march as the flight guide fall in in the back of the flight.  He can also be one of the element leaders.

Don't confuse a job/duty position with a position in the marching formation. 

The key is to make sure that you write a clear description of his duties.  "helping the flight sergeant" is not enough.