Post-crash replacement of Government Owned Aircraft?

[parsimonious_instead]

   Just saw a video presentation about an error chain caused by an SAR helicopter pilot for the New Mexico state police, leading to his death, the death of the lost hiker he rescued, and the severe injury of the observer aboard the aircraft.   File photos gave the N-number, which I looked up.
Based on the history of that registration number, it looks as if the State of New Mexico didn't waste any time replacing that aircraft.
   I looked up some information on the aircraft itself - an Agusta Westland AW109 - pretty hefty pricetag of 6+ million dollars.
  Do State agencies have that sort of cash in their coffers?  And if they do, don't big-ticket items like aircraft and rolling stock have to go through a fairly lengthy procurement process?

[lordmonar]

It's called insurance.....beleive it or not....some agencies actually carry it.

[parsimonious_instead]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

[Eclipse]

Most agencies in general have contingencies plans for replacement of mission critical assets, which could have been anything from
accelerating previously-approved fleet additions, insurance replacement, or simply an expedited process.

Procurement process aren't necessarily very long, especially when the RFP is written in such a way as to limit or preclude all but a limited
number of vendors from the start.

[lordmonar]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

[RADIOMAN015]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

Do you honestly think the state is going to go after the dead employees estate to pay for this "accident"   Willing to bet that employee's union has got something in the contract to prohibit that and the state would take some heat from a lot of people for billing someone who "died in the line of duty", trying to do his best when he crashed.

Do you think CAP Inc goes after the estates of dead crew members (I'm thinking about the Wyoming crash a few years back that occurred while searching for a lost person)   That would be interesting to find out IF they did go after the pilot's estate
RM
   

[PHall]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

Do you honestly think the state is going to go after the dead employees estate to pay for this "accident"   Willing to bet that employee's union has got something in the contract to prohibit that and the state would take some heat from a lot of people for billing someone who "died in the line of duty", trying to do his best when he crashed.

Do you think CAP Inc goes after the estates of dead crew members (I'm thinking about the Wyoming crash a few years back that occurred while searching for a lost person)   That would be interesting to find out IF they did go after the pilot's estate
RM
   

You assume that the pilot was a member of a union. Also, the union, if there is one, would not be involved in this case.

And if the pilot was found to be at fault according to the NTSB accident report, you can bet the farm that the State will go after the pilot's estate.

[ol'fido]

Most agencies in general have contingencies plans for replacement of mission critical assets, which could have been anything from
accelerating previously-approved fleet additions, insurance replacement, or simply an expedited process.

Procurement process aren't necessarily very long, especially when the RFP is written in such a way as to limit or preclude all but a limited
number of vendors from the start.

Or they could just do what IL does...."I'll gladly pay you a year from Tuesday for a helicopter today." AKA the"Wimpy" school of accounting.

[Spaceman3750]

Most agencies in general have contingencies plans for replacement of mission critical assets, which could have been anything from
accelerating previously-approved fleet additions, insurance replacement, or simply an expedited process.

Procurement process aren't necessarily very long, especially when the RFP is written in such a way as to limit or preclude all but a limited
number of vendors from the start.

Or they could just do what IL does...."I'll gladly pay you a year from Tuesday for a helicopter today." AKA the"Wimpy" school of accounting.

I prefer the Blagojevich school of accounting - "How many Senate seats will this helicopter cost me?"

[RADIOMAN015]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

Do you honestly think the state is going to go after the dead employees estate to pay for this "accident"   Willing to bet that employee's union has got something in the contract to prohibit that and the state would take some heat from a lot of people for billing someone who "died in the line of duty", trying to do his best when he crashed.

Do you think CAP Inc goes after the estates of dead crew members (I'm thinking about the Wyoming crash a few years back that occurred while searching for a lost person)   That would be interesting to find out IF they did go after the pilot's estate
RM
   

You assume that the pilot was a member of a union. Also, the union, if there is one, would not be involved in this case.

And if the pilot was found to be at fault according to the NTSB accident report, you can bet the farm that the State will go after the pilot's estate.

This isn't about Civil Air Patrol (but if you are flying a CAP aircraft or driving a CAP vehicle you need to be sure you really understand your potential liability even IF you die in the accident, and insure appropriate insurance protection is in effect and your family members know about it).

Somehow I think that most state employees (or for that matter any government agency) are going to be protected as employees from being personally liable, especially if they die in the performance of their duties.  That's just good public policy.   IF you were a public safety employee that thought your family would be financial responsible after your death "in the line of duty" that would definitely damper your response.

Also as another example, remember the B52 crash at Fairchild AFB WA practicing for an airshow (that made a sharp turn, was not high enough in altitude, stalled and could not recover before impacting the ground), were the military pilot likely was found at fault.  Do you think the government went after his survivors benefits to pay for the replacement of the B52 aircraft and pay the survivors benefits for the other deceased crew members No they didn't.
     
HOWEVER, as others have said there's probably no law that says those individual crew member(s) estate/surviving family members for that aircraft/helo can't sue the dead pilots estate, of course unless there's something in the other employees (crew members) contract (or by law) that prevents this.  Maybe the 'civilian" killed in the incident, survivors might have the legal standing.  Likely the state agency would be required to defend against the suit anyways.
RM
   

[lordmonar]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

Do you honestly think the state is going to go after the dead employees estate to pay for this "accident"   Willing to bet that employee's union has got something in the contract to prohibit that and the state would take some heat from a lot of people for billing someone who "died in the line of duty", trying to do his best when he crashed.

Do you think CAP Inc goes after the estates of dead crew members (I'm thinking about the Wyoming crash a few years back that occurred while searching for a lost person)   That would be interesting to find out IF they did go after the pilot's estate
RM
   

Not the state....they got paid (assuming that they had insurance) but the insurance company certainly would go after the estate of the deceased if they thought he was at fault.....and there was any money to be had.

CAP and USAF both have programs where they can go after the estates of members who were negilant and caused loss of propertly and injury. 
Of course, there is always the bad PR and the fact that there may not be any money to be had from the estate...so they just cut their losses.  But in the cases where the pilot had AOPA insurance with a CAP rider....you can bet that they will take them (the insurance company) to court to get something.

P.S.  The litigation may also be agains the aircraft manufacter, the maintenance facility, the FAA and/or the estate of the dead hiker.  Insurance companies don't really care about bad PR like that.

[Flying Pig]

    OK... that's helpful, if a bit sarcastic in overall tone.  I'm new to CAP and general aviation, and I'm browsing through material I'm finding on AOPA and other aviation sites.   I wasn't sure if state agencies did indeed carry insurance, or if they self-insured.  And truth be told, I'm surprised that there'd be a payout that quickly before the completion of a post-crash investigation.  That's why I'm asking - so I can learn something.

Well the crash was last June.....more then enough time for a preliminary invistigation.....enough for the insurance company to make a pay out....they may still have some litigation in the works....but depending on how the policy is written that may stop/slow the pay out.

The crash was June 2009. The helicopter was replaced quickly with insurance.  Most agencies that I know of carry insurance on their aircraft.  I know mine does.  AOPA has nothing to do with how a law enforcement agency replaces their aircraft nor does any police union or association make that decision.  That is usually a command decision by the agency heads and/or municipality or state legislature.  For example, a Sheriff would make that decision here in CA.  She may ask the County Board for extra money, but answers to no one as to how its spent (assuming spent legally)

They didnt waste any time getting it replace because the mission continues.  There were mistakes made that day, that started long before the actual flight.  No once they got it, yes, many things were revamped and looked at.  But the NMSP had other pilots so it was imperative to get a new aircraft back into service and identify training issues.   I think its a salute to the NMSP that they didnt sit around for the next few years trying to make a decision, or worse, fold completely.  Identify the training and personnel issues that contributed, correct the issues and get back into service. 

That incident was a pretty big eye opener in regards to training standards in the Airborne LE community.  But in LE aviation, just like many other areas of aviation, each individual unit maintains their own standards.  The FARs are the foundation but where a unit takes it from their is up to them.  And I can assure you, the insurance company, at least in LE will not go after the pilots estate.    Law enforcement officers are exempt from that in most states by law.
The family of the hiker that had been rescued did sue the state and I believe it was settled.  That was no surprise.  I had applied to the NMSP a while back.  Seemed like a solid agency.  I just couldnt take the $20 an hour pay CUT!!

thread at the time of the accident

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8222.0

[parsimonious_instead]

  I learned a lot from the replies to my original posting.  Thank you all!

[RRLE]

remember the B52 crash at Fairchild AFB WA practicing for an airshow

Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study of Failed Leadership by Major Tony Kern
United States Air Force.

Wikipedia: 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash

[Flying Pig]

At the Airborne Law Enforcement Crew Course the Czar 52 crash is given a lot of time because of the blatant leadership issues.  Here is a book Ive been trying to get my hands on http://www.amazon.com/Darker-Shades-Blue-Rogue-Pilot/product-reviews/0070349274

Im just not going to pay $50 for it but I hear its good.  There is also a chapter in that book about CAP.  But I dont know what incident its talking about.

[parsimonious_instead]

remember the B52 crash at Fairchild AFB WA practicing for an airshow

Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study of Failed Leadership by Major Tony Kern
United States Air Force.

Wikipedia: 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash

RRLE, I read this a couple of times - fascinating stuff.  Thanks for posting the link.