Non Traditional Educational Rant

[Flying Pig]

In my line of work, education is a big deal.  Without a Bachelors, or at least almost finished with one you will never make it to Sgt.  There is no degree requirement to work for most agencies.  Obviously this argument is moot for a department that requires a BA as a minimum entry requirement.  Its pretty long, I was just getting thoughts down and next thing I knew it was LOOONG.  I am not discounting what a college degree does for someone. But what I am talking about is how sometimes vocational training can be just as beneficial.  The problem is, most people have no idea what is involved.   In my particular situation, I am continually being told by managers that I need to finish my BA.  I say "Why?"  I feel the only reason I am being told that is because some bosses have no idea what is involved in my particular area of expertise (vocational education).  To preface this, I was in a discussion regarding a professor asking us cops what their educational background was.  So I offered up mine.  I was immediately hit with what I knew was coming...."No, we mean college". 
I thought about tweeking this and maybe writing an article to one of our LE magazines about the benefits about pursuing advanced vocational education vs getting one of many degree options.  Id like some feed back if you have a couple days to spare to sort through it    My college background in addition is that I am a math class and one lab class away from my AA in addition to my aviation training.  Im not opposed to getting a degree, Id LOVE one......I just dont have the spare cash to just dump into a degree when I already have the job I wanted.  Most of the people I talk to about this arent pilots or CFIs.  So they dont have a foundation.  Many of you here are professional pilots/CFIs who ALSO have advanced degrees.  Id just like to know if I am out of line or if you feel like there is a foundation for my position.   Enjoy.....

This is a thread I was involved in at another site. It started like this:
By CJ Prof
"Informal poll... what is your educational background, major in college, or degrees currently being pursued? The vast majority of my criminal justice students are interested in law enforcement careers. They have a hard time believing me when I tell them to consider alternative areas of study, such as psychology, sociology, accounting, english or history. I obtained my bachelor's in sociology prior to my law enforcement career and never felt as if I had missed out by not majoring in CJ, as most of the knowledge and skills needed for the police job were gained through the academy and experience (I didn't start my graduate education in CJ until the very end of my policing career). Not to belittle my own curriculum, but did any of you major in a particular area of study that you feel has helped you significantly in your law enforcement career? Or, did you find college generally valuable for communication skills, writing, reading, critical thinking? Hoping for a variety of advice to present to my students.... thank you in advance for your insights."

(To sum up the two pages that followed, basically everyone just started posting their degrees and what degrees they planned on finishing.)

I responded with:
"Commercial Pilot Helicopter and Airplane /Flight Instructor. But nobody ever cares when they ask about advanced education"

And got:
"Exactly. Your qualifications are vocational. The term "advanced education" refers to master's degrees and higher, not vocational education (regardless of how expensive or difficult they are to obtain)"

And I responded with everything from here down:
Original Post:
"Informal poll... what is your educational background, major in college, or degrees currently being pursued?"

As a cop, I decided against traditional college and decided "vocational training" was going to get me what I wanted more than any college degree would. And I was right. I had most of my ratings before I got into LE, and they were quit the subject of conversation in every one of my oral interviews.
I realize my ratings arent college degrees. But the initial thread didnt ask for that. It asked specifically for "educational background", then college degrees -or- degrees being pursued. However, it seems that my "vocational education" is more directly related to my LE duties than most cops I know with "advanced education". It requires continual maintenance, continual study and continuous renewal.

Im not looking to start any arguments, but unless I missed it, the term "advanced education" is nowhere in CJ Prof's initial post. I am the one who used the term generically. It wasnt a pre-req to being able to add to the thread. I am not referring to a basic private pilot who flies on the weekends for pleasure. A commercial pilot and flight instructor is most certainly "advanced education". Maybe the college establishment thinks they have a monopoly on the term, but come out the airport and talk about advanced education and it takes on a different meaning. If you end up at my LE Departments Aviation Unit and talk about "advanced education" youll find college isnt the only profession who uses the term.

You do not need a college degree to be successful in police work. And I think any academy instructor or CJ professor who fails to point out other educational alternatives to bettering your chances of getting into LE or being successful in LE is being misleading to their students or is naive about the valuable "vocational" requirements of many LE positions. If I had a dollar for every degree laden cop who has told me "Man....I shoulda spent my money on flight training...." If flying isnt your thing, OK then no loss.

CJ Prof's post:
"They have a hard time believing me when I tell them to consider alternative areas of study, such as psychology, sociology, accounting, english or history."

And why do you tell them this? You tell them so they have a foundation beyond police work. Lets face it, you tell them this so they have something to fall back on after they blow their knees out jumping over a fence in the dark chasing some dirt bag.

As far as being applicable outside of police work, my education is extremely applicable in its field. Just like a specific degree is applicable to specific fields. In fact, not only applicable, I work for two separate civilian aviation companies in my off time. One flying helicopters another flying airplanes. I could leave LE today and have a pick of many comparable paying career fields tomorrow. So again, when we are encouraging college/academy students to pursue degrees other than a CJ degree, why is "vocational education" never mentioned? Thre is plenty of vocational education that is applicable to a degree as well. All of my flight training is directly applicable to a degree as well because it was done at a Part 141 flight school.


CJ Profs post:
"Not to belittle my own curriculum, but did any of you major in a particular area of study that you feel has helped you significantly in your law enforcement career? Or, did you find college generally valuable for communication skills, writing, reading, critical thinking?"

Critical thinking? Yes. Being able to think objectively and make no-go decisions. Being able to make decisions that affect other peoples lives based on facts not emotion or "beliefs". Be able to make real life and death decisions and stand on them? If you've never had to call the Sheriff (or a paying customer in my civilian job) and tell them the flight is a no-go because of your interpretation of what the weather is going to be 5 days from now, its pretty nerve racking. Then to have the 3 star call you back just to "make sure you think your right?"

Communication? As a flight instructor I routinely teach ground school classes to 30-40 students. Most very well educated older people with the disposable income to spend it on flying. And all spending a lot of money and valuable time to sit and listen to me teach.
Try flying IFR in zero visibility. That will be a lesson in communication you'll never forget. Clear concise and to the point. How about having a student that reacts very wrong to a flight attitude and nearly puts you into a spin 800ft above the ground. Being able to recover, maintain your composure and then be able to explain to the student that they almost killed you both, without destroying their desire to keep flying? That may be a skill directly applicable to LE work. Ever try taking a student through a spin recovery?! Holy geeez...talk about a lesson in communication and maintaining your own composure.
Aerobatic and Emergency Instruction. Very precise speeds and aircraft configurations that dont have a margin for error. Your sitting next to your student allowing them to make mistakes while your white knuckling your own knees because you HAVE to let them learn it themselves.
Try BS'ing a class and see if you dont get destroyed by the student who actually did their homework. These are all skills that are TAUGHT and perfected through this type of advanced education.

Writing? Developing lesson plans, being able to pounce on "teachable moments", creating power points for your courses. Take a flight instructor check ride with a no-emotion FAA Inspector who is a retired 25 airline Captain whos throwing technical questions at you and you have 5 minutes to prepare to teach it to him at the commercial pilot level. My CFI check ride was 8 hours long.

Reading? Aeronautics, weather theory, airspace, formulas, understanding electronics and GPS systems and power plant systems and being able to understand them to the point where you can explain them to an examiner during a check ride? Reading and interpreting performance charts and weight and balance configurations. Filing flight plans and making sure your flight logs are filled out and legible. Wow....that sounds a lot like report writing and understanding the complex aspects of case law.

Does it sound like I am bragging about my training....ehhhh, no more than somebody talking about how difficult it was to obtain their college degree. However its not without merit considering its directly applicable to education directly related to law enforcement. No, its not a college degree. I read the post as CJ Prof asking about education backgrounds and what other types of backgrounds can assist a potentially successful candidate and possible give them a broad understanding applicable to police work. Do you know that advanced aerobatic and emergency procedures training deals heavily with psychology, why people react they way they do and "fight or flight" reactions? Hmmm, that sounds like something Ive heard about in police work. An inverted flat spin where you have to force yourself to think systematically, react in a very specific order and verbally call out those check lists while you doing them....for real! Thats a lesson in battling tunnel vision youll never forget.

Many colleges offer aviation related degrees where your vocational education counts towards your degree. The problem with my particular field is that everybody had a grandpa or a friend who has a pilots license and thats how they perceive the field. When in reality most pilots never get to advanced levels.

My descriptions can apply to many different areas of vocational education and how they relate to being successful in law enforcement. You just have to know how to explain it. Thats an issue I have with a lot of LE management. Many arent able to see beyond their degrees that they probably never use and recognize that there are those of us with very relevant "advanced education" obtained through other avenues.

I obviously use aviation and particular vocational training as an argument because its what I have and it directly relates to my daily job in LE. I would just ask that for those who are managers or make hiring decisions or promotion policy decisions think about it. For those with advanced degrees who look down on cops who dont have them (Face it you guys are out there because I hear you everytime promotions come up) I would just ask that you take a step back and understand vocational education has many levels. Many have advanced levels no different than your degree in a particular field. And many have advanced levels far beyond even your chosen field of study and maybe even more relevant to the law enforcement profession.

Would I love to finish my degree? Yes. My vocational education combined with a degree would be unstoppable. However.....Im pretty much tapped on money for much more formal education! Although I am actually only a math class and a lab away from my AA.

Just a different perspective on paths to education is all.

[davidsinn]

 :clap:

I am so tired of higher ed snobs deriding vocational education.

[Eclipse]

Ability, competency, and proficiency have very little to do with education beyond the baseline of "this box goes over there..."

Abstract thinking has nothing to do with education, yet in this economy and what will follow, that is one of the most valuable
skills one can possess.

You can train someone to be a manager, you cannot train them to be a leader.

In my personal experience, a significant portion of those people who are most "excited" about higher / formal education are those
who are, themselves, invested in that system, due as much to "sunk cost" as the true value of the experience.

[Ned]

In my personal experience, a significant portion of those people who are most "excited" about higher / formal education are those who are, themselves, invested in that system, due as much to "sunk cost" as the true value of the experience.

Probably true.

Of course, the reverse is also true.  It has been my personal experience that a significant portion of those people who complain most and resist higher education requirements are those who are, themselves, not invested in that system.

"My" tax rates are clearly already too high.  It's that other guy who isn't paying his "fair share."

My congressman does a good job.  Its all those other congress-critters that suck.

My fashion sense is impeccable; you look like a reality-show refugee.

More taste; less filling.


The only way to really resolve these kinds of issues is to come up with a systematic way to study the success rates in a given job for folks with and without a given level of education while controlling for all other factors.  Won't be easy. 

Until then we will exchange personal views and anecdotes.  Ultimately we will each have to decide these things for ourselves and make the best choices possible.

[Eclipse]

Esteemed jurists with a wall of degrees would have good reason to advocate higher education in their respective field, however if you're job involves "supersizing", that liberal arts degree is probably not going to be an easy sale.

It's also interesting that the OP's debater uses the term "vocation" as if that was some how a bad thing - there used to be a time when considering your job a "vocation" was a plus - most successful CAP people would probably use that term.

The real issue is the arbitrary inching of the bar toward college degrees for trades and other occupations which were traditionally hands-on, direct training
and / or apprenticeship situations.

You can get a degree in electrical engineering, or work directly as apprentice.  Whether you know Ohm's personal history won't change his law.

[Flying Pig]

Until then we will exchange personal views and anecdotes.  Ultimately we will each have to decide these things for ourselves and make the best choices possible.

Yeah, but thats the problem I run into.  The people in charge have already decided it's a degree or nothing.  Its what amounts to a view of "Well, if I had to do it, so does everyone else"   And thats just it, any degree will suffice.  Most of the managers I work with have obtained their degrees through online education without ever leaving the comfort of their home offices.  So in my line of work Im clearly trying to convince the establishment that there are other ways.  But then that cheapens their on-line degree in Sociology or whatever else they could get. 

Im in a weird position because without a degree I have achieved as high and as far as I want to go.  Just next time some Sgt says "Oh, you dont have your degree huh?"  Im going to respond with "Oh, your not a dual rated CFI huh?"     I do need to get my AA done at a minimum, especially since Im only 2 classes away.

Now where this discussion gets interesting is when you apply to a flying job that requires a Bachelors degree!   

[Ned]

It is interesting how things change over time.

I was regular police officer in Southern California in the '70s.  And I came into the profession with a liberal arts BA.  At the time, I think only the City of Irvine required 60 units.  The other agencies that "required" college were essentially only requiring the number of units that are normally awarded for completion of a police academy.

And I felt discrimination in the hiring process because I was a "college boy".  I can't back it up with any data, but I felt strongly that I was hired despite my BA and only because I had an AA in Administration of Justice and a couple years working as a reserve officer.

At the time the State Peace Officer Commision (POST) was on a rampage against distance learning BAs and would refuse to recognize BAs earned other than on a brick and mortar campus.  (After a lawsuit or two, they rolled over and accept any accedited degree.)

Now, as you point out, a BA seems to be almost a minimum for California law enforcement.  My daughter's academy class in 2010 was over 75% with a BA; the remainder were sandbox vets and/or so close to a degree that the academy units would put them over.

Most of the sergeants in my local SO are in master's programs.


Like I said, interesting.

(And Bob, most folks think of medical and legal degrees as vocational degrees.)

[Eclipse]

I suppose - depends on the family and why you start.

Around my parts, the inching of the degree line was seen by many (on both sides of the fence), as an arbitrary, convenient way of reducing
the candidates (I've been to cattle calls involving thousands of applicants for 6 "potential" jobs over 4 years), especially true for suburban and
state departments.

One of my best friends is a Sgt in town, just made shift commander and is a likely candidate in the not too distant future for an executive
job in the department.  I doubt his A&P degree helps much day-to-day.

What many employers learn the hard way is that setting the bar too high means increased turn-over because the people they higher
don't want to stick around.

[NCRblues]

What many employers learn the hard way is that setting the bar too high means increased turn-over because the people they higher
don't want to stick around.

Plus, no one with a BA or above wants to stick around when they are paying him no more than the guy with his GED who sits 2 desks down.

Raising the bar is all good and fine to a point, but I just recently read a Harvard study that (im cutting it way down here) because of the upped requirements for degrees, but the lack of overall pay increases in this country, the next "bubble to pop" will be the education bubble. How can the kid with a BA in art history pay his loans back when he is making just enough to live on or is unemployed?

I have a degree, and IMHO the "education" that the USAF paid for me to get was worthless. It looks nice on my wall...and I know a TON of gee whiz information...but that's about it...but that is for another discussion.

[stillamarine]

Luckily my dept doesn't require any kind of degree until you are trying for Capt. But if you have an associates you get a 5% pay bump and a bachelor's gets you 10%. Of course it gives you pts when you take promotional exams. So next month when I take the Sgts test I will already be behind.

[jimmydeanno]

I think education should match what it is that you're trying to accomplish.  I would never expect my plumber to have a 4-year degree in plumbing.  What I would expect is that they've had some sort of formal training in the job, and some sort of certification saying that they are competent in plumbing.  A plumber with a history degree doesn't matter to me.

The high-school I graduated from really pushed kids to all go to a 4-year degree program after graduation.  However, they offered admission to the vocational school in the next town over.  The vocational school offered high-school students classes in restaurant operations and management, welding, auto-technician, electrical, plumbing, carpentry, and various other "trades." 

I think the idea that everyone needs a four-year degree is preposterous.  There are certainly a number of drawbacks.  If I want to become an auto-mechanic, I would seek certifications through ASE.  If my goal is to competently fix cars, being an ASE certified Master Mechanic is going to be far more valuable than having a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering.  Additionally, fixing cars is something that requires a significant amount of hands-on OJT, not classroom setting lecture.

For the LE community, I think it would be beneficial for the guys who are arresting bad guys, or get into administrative leadership positions to have a degree in Criminal Justice, or something along that line, as well as some OJT experience-based training.  However, I'd want my aviation guys to be the best darn trained pilots they could be, which isn't going to happen with a 4-year degree in aviation management. 

If the aviation guy wants to become the aviation unit supervisor, I think the guy who is the trained, certified pilot, AND has the aviation management degree is going to have a leg up on the guy who didn't continue with non-technical courses of study.  However, I'm not going to thumb my nose at the pilot who has advanced certifications, by any means.

[bosshawk]

Rob: the responses to your rant are spot on, IMHO.  I could likely add to some of the ideas and opinions(like I am reluctant to express opinions??), but I'll hold that for the day when I fly down to Fresno and take you to lunch.  I am close enough that 35 minutes of avgas does the trick.  Give me a call.

[FARRIER]

If the aviation guy wants to become the aviation unit supervisor, I think the guy who is the trained, certified pilot, AND has the aviation management degree is going to have a leg up on the guy who didn't continue with non-technical courses of study.  However, I'm not going to thumb my nose at the pilot who has advanced certifications, by any means.

From a guy who who took the aviation management track:

     Since some flying outfits, not just airlines, add or use the educational requirement of at least a BA or BS, minor in aviation. You can put your ratings towards the credits. Major in something else. As stated earlier, you will have something to fall back on.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

From my perspective the college degree today is worth exactly the same as a high school diploma in the mid 1960's.  Talking strictly from the accounting field, in the mid 1960's I applied for and got a job as a bookkeeper trainee.  At that time the educational requirement was high school.  By the mid 1970's I was noticing the requirements for bookkeepers to be "some college".  By the 1980's the reqirements for a bookkeper position were a degree in accounting or related field.  Now, I see advertisements for bookkeepers looking for advanced degrees and a CPA--All for a bloomin bookkeeper position. 
  I view this "degree creep" as a [darn]ing indictment aganist public education.  Again, in the 1950's and 1960's schools were charged with educating students, and there was no such thing as "social promotions"  The students either did the work and passed or they failed.  Today, it seems most of my grandkids are being subjected to a lot of social engineering and very little educatiing.  Basic skills are very rear in todyas youth.  High School grads who can't read, kids who can't do basic arithmatic without a calulator, kids who can't read.  Todays colleges are having to do what high schools did, and they are failing.
rant off

[ProdigalJim]

The "degree creep" phenomenon is happening in every field. My wife is an actress...an actual, legit, trained actress. Studied at Stella Adler conservatory, did some off-Broadway, touring companies, etc. Summer stock, eight shows a week. In other words, lots of credits and worked her butt off. Even did a little TV. She holds an AFTRA card and is a member of Actor's Equity. In the past six years or so, she's started losing out to people with Master's of Fine Arts in acting, but maybe three or four show credits. A director told her point-blank that the company was looking for MFAs not necessarily for their superior abilities, but because the troupe occasionally puts on workshops in public schools and it's easier to get funding if more of the performers have graduate degrees. In flippin' acting!

Given that there are nationally accepted standards published to codify how many college credits an instrument rating is worth, a multi-engine rating, a CCFI and so forth, I'd be willing to bet Flying Pig is closer to a Bachelor's than a lot of people might think.

[James Shaw]

I have a personal opinion and professional opinion I wish to offer. My wife has worked in the medical field for the past seven years. She too loves her job and does a great job. The hospital she works at loves the level of work she does and has no doubts about her abilities or skills. She works as a Histologist (prepares tissue and surgical specimens for a pathologist) and it has benefitted her and our family as a whole since she started. Her single income was my saving grace while I was unemployed for almost two years. She carries on professional conversations about her work and the work of the doctors without hesitation and can remember things about her job and the doctors work without missing a beat. The kicker is she does all of this with a 1 year "certificate" from our local two year college. She has no desire to go back and finish her associate's degree unless she is required to. She is only required to have the certificate from the school and pass a national test through the American Society of Clinical Pathologists.  Unless she decides to go into hospital supervision she never has to finish the AA degree if she doesn't want to. This is great for her because it is what she wants. She does get some pushback from her co-workers at time but her reputation for doing her work sets her apart from others as it is. You can have all the degree's in the world and still suck at your job.

I have much more I could add. Not only did I start off in Vocational Education but I did this as a factory worker. I wanted to show my employeer what a great job I could do and decided to go to Vocational School and show them, I showed them to the point where I lost sight of what I wanted for me and that is where I messed it up. You cant do it for them. You have to do it for you if thats what you want. Much more info to share but it would be a few pages long.

[Captain Morgan]

College Conspiracy

[Майор Хаткевич]

A few thoughts on this topic as someone in his last 6 months of college:

90% of what I've learned I will never use again.

Just NOW am I getting decent instruction, from great instructors. My past 3.5 years do not reflect this quarter.

I believe a lot of people rate a college degree as a "he put up with that for 4 years, he should manage this job". I personally believe many vocational jobs can prove the same.

Marketing classes have forever ruined shows with product placement for me.

[gw263]

In today's world, a four year degree is seen as the basic qualification for professional advancement.   If you don't have at least that qualification lots of jobs are closed.  An accredited four year degree tells the employer that you have spent a considerable amount of effort in achieving a goal (are able to defer gratification), can finish a task, and have some level of literacy.  I am a retired major with a large police agency, and my agency requires a four year degree for lieutenant, and a masters for major.  The information, ability to handle and understand statistics, and other topics taught in the masters program were valuable in the upper levels of administration.  If you don't want to advance, then I can understand, because it is not really useful at the line officer level.  I also have a commercial/instrument/CFI, and cannot see that that information is useful in police administration.