Adding Requirements to Promotions

[lordmonar]

From another thread.

It is against regulations to add additional requirments to the published promtion regulations.

For example.....you can't require former AD officers to get a tech rateing before submitting their promotion.
You can't require someone to hold a job at group for promotion for major.

[Eclipse]

Is there a question in there or are you just reminding us?

[lordmonar]

Just starting up the conversation. 

[NCRblues]

So, ill solve all the problems with it...

I just wont put them in for it 

[RiverAux]

There is some commanders discretion in the regulations, but if they're going to deny a promotion to someone who has otherwise met the published requirements I think they're skating on thin ice unless there is a documented history of misbehavior of some kind on the part of the person involved. 

The most common thing we hear about is is people delaying submission of mission-related or professional appointment promotions until such time as the person is actively using those skills in CAP.  For example not giving a pilot a promotion until they've got their CAP Pilot rating.  I think that is perfectly acceptable and I wish the regulations actually specifically required it.

[arajca]

The requriement for using skills depends on what process you are using for advanced grade. For example, Mission Related Skills (pilots) require using those skills in CAP.

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission. Promotion procedures are outlined in paragraph 1-8c.

emphasis mine

For professional appointments, such as lawyers, health services officers, etc, some do, some don't.

5-1. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedure for initial appointment and subsequent promotion of CAP members who serve as chaplains, character development instructors, health service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers. For the purpose of this regulation, the following definitions apply:

[lordmonar]

There is some commanders discretion in the regulations, but if they're going to deny a promotion to someone who has otherwise met the published requirements I think they're skating on thin ice unless there is a documented history of misbehavior of some kind on the part of the person involved. 

The most common thing we hear about is is people delaying submission of mission-related or professional appointment promotions until such time as the person is actively using those skills in CAP.  For example not giving a pilot a promotion until they've got their CAP Pilot rating.  I think that is perfectly acceptable and I wish the regulations actually specifically required it.

For mission related skills....it is in the regulations.  So I would not object to a CFI having to get his form 5 ride before approving his promotion.

For professional appointments......they have to assigned to specific duties....but are not required to actually have a rateing in their specialty.

Of course the commander always has the discretion to not recommend base on subjective critera.....some Liscened physician who just does not get it, or is not really ready for Major.

I am all for that...and support any commander's who takes the stand to support those standards.....but a blanket policy to "proove" their commitment to CAP? 

The reasoning behind the regulation IMHO is that they are professionals in their field....what would a stupid CAPP and more time doing BS work do to make them more professional?

[davidsinn]

The reasoning behind the regulation IMHO is that they are professionals in their field...

Aren't we all professionals in our fields?

what would a stupid CAPP and more time doing BS work do to make them more professional?

It's not about making them more professional, it's about making sure they get understand the program and we don't end up with more clueless captains.

[Eclipse]

The reasoning behind the regulation IMHO is that they are professionals in their field....what would a stupid CAPP and more time doing BS work do to make them more professional?

Actually understand the program...

Being a lawyer, doctor, or CFI (etc.) means (in theory), you have some advanced knowledge of the law, medicine, or aviation, respectively, however you may have zero experience operating in a paramilitary environment, dealing with volunteers, or adolescents.  The point where your relevant outside abilities intersect with reasonable program knowledge is when you should be considered qualified for advanced promotion.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse:  Being a lawyer, doctor or CFI ( etc.) means IN FACT you have advanced knowledge of the law, medicine or aviation. And while you may not have paramilitary, volunteer or adolescent experience, you ABSOLUTELY have skills that the CAP, the UASF and common sense has determined valuable and deserves an advanced grade. (Just like the "real military" has in the case of lawyers and doctors, unsure about CFIs).

The CAP has followed the lead of the military in recognizing that certain positions such as those mentioned above (and others on a case by case basis) are an important asset obtained without cost.

The advanced grade policy is codified in CAP regulations and not really debatable.

Now wrap you mind around this: A person could have been an NCO in the army, then went to law or medical school on the GI bill and when they now join the CAP, they decided they wanted to wear their sergeant chevrons. Can they still be a CAP lawyer or medical (non-commissioned) officer?

[Eclipse]

Your example is missing a big piece that makes all the difference - internal training.
Even if it is "only" saluting school, those receiving advanced grade in the military are required to complete their basic officer school, and then go on
to internal training in military procedures, whether that is law, medicine, or other.

Unlike CAP, no one in the military is hired on Monday, made a Major on Tuesday, and performing their staff job on Wednesday with the full expectation that they know what they are doing.

Specific to my example, legal and medical knowledge have such a narrow lane in CAP that they are all but useless at the unit level in their professional respect.  CFI's don't mean much to a squadron unless they are flying training.

Now wrap you mind around this: A person could have been an NCO in the army, then went to law or medical school on the GI bill and when they now join the CAP, they decided they wanted to wear their sergeant chevrons. Can they still be a CAP lawyer or medical (non-commissioned) officer?

Where's the catch?  Below Wing CC there is no connection between staff appointment and grade.  If they choose not to work CAP's program and
instead wear stripes from another service, so be it.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse: In accordance with CAP REGULATION 35-5 SECTION C(c) - SPECIAL APPOINTMENTS, you have to complete Level 1 training before you you can be awarded your advanced grade.  Level 1 is our "basic training" as it were, so they have complected the codified requirements for the grade.

No one really expects a new CAP legal/medical officer to know everything abut the CAP by "Wednesday", however they surly can form sound medical/legal opinions?

As to the remark they are useless at the unit level, this is a short sided view that you are entitled to have, but I suspect you are not fully informed of the "bigger picture" where they serve at.

And a finial thought: Wearing NCO chevrons is in fact "working the CAP system", in accordance with the prevailing regulations. I could have came in at an advanced grade but feel I can offer my specialist skill at SGT or LTC.

[AC]

Well, I think that at squadron level, one would get more results if you were a LTC and not a SGT. IMO.

AC

[Hardshell Clam]

Well, I think that at squadron level, one would get more results if you were a LTC and not a SGT. IMO.

That is one reason why in the army we did not wear our ranks on our working uniforms, just a "US" and did not have to tell people our pay grades. (CID and/or Counterintelligence Agents).

I know its apples and oranges, just an observation and only slightly relevant. Just a fun fact. 

[AC]

Well, I think that at squadron level, one would get more results if you were a LTC and not a SGT. IMO.

That is one reason why in the army we did not wear our ranks on our working uniforms, just a "US" and did not have to tell people our pay grades. (CID and/or Counterintelligence Agents).

I know its apples and oranges, just an observation and only slightly relevant. Just a fun fact. 

BTDT. Nowadays, in CAP, what works, works.

[lordmonar]

Unlike CAP, no one in the military is hired on Monday, made a Major on Tuesday, and performing their staff job on Wednesday with the full expectation that they know what they are doing.

Sorry....but I have to disagree here.

In the USAF doctors.....come in as Capt.  They go through an aberviated OTS program and and are paid as Capt from day one.
There are provisions to bring doctors into the USAF with advanced ranks.  It is possible to come in as a full O-6 Col.

Specific to my example, legal and medical knowledge have such a narrow lane in CAP that they are all but useless at the unit level in their professional respect.  CFI's don't mean much to a squadron unless they are flying training.

Apples and oranges. 

First off.....in order to apply for a professional promotion...they must be appointed to the position.  So if you don't need a Legal Officer at the unit...then you don't appoint one and the Judge has to be a 2d Lt just like everyone else.  Same story thing for Medical offices.

For the CFI.....no advanced promotion unless he is actually flying for CAP....as it is a mission related skill.

You also have to expand your mind beyond how they help out "the squadron"......Training Ground Teams does not "help" the squadron.....but it helps the Group/Wing/CAP do its mission.  A pilot joins a cadet squadron with no airplane assigned....he can still be a valuable CAP asset flying the next squadron over's air plane.....and would be eligible for advance promotion....even if his pilot skills have no direct impact on the squadron.

[Eclipse]

I think you know what I meant, but will grant you if they are serving CAP in a capacity appreciated by their commander, then they are fulling the spirit of the advanced promotions policies.

But a CFI who decides to be the unit FM and not fly for CAP should not be getting an advanced promotion for the CFI (etc., etc.).

[lordmonar]

I think you know what I meant, but will grant you if they are serving CAP in a capacity appreciated by their commander, then they are fulling the spirit of the advanced promotions policies.

But a CFI who decides to be the unit FM and not fly for CAP should not be getting an advanced promotion for the CFI (etc., etc.).

Absolutely.....and that is in the regulation.....people just don't read that part.   

[Short Field]

Your example is missing a big piece that makes all the difference - internal training.
Even if it is "only" saluting school, those receiving advanced grade in the military are required to complete their basic officer school, and then go on to internal training in military procedures, whether that is law, medicine, or other.

Unlike CAP, no one in the military is hired on Monday, made a Major on Tuesday, and performing their staff job on Wednesday with the full expectation that they know what they are doing.

LOL - I guess a 1st Lt I worked with when I was a medic was an exception.  He enlisted to avoid the draft, was a A1C at one base, selected as a Medical Service Admin officer, departed his base a AIC and arrived at his next one a 2nd Lt.   The MDs attended a one week school - mainly to get their paperwork taken care of and buy uniforms.  Most were able to wear a correct and complete uniform (as in the correct shirt and pants combo) - but not all of them.

If a CAP commander is unable to follow the intent and letter of the regulations and feels he needs to "augment" them, he really needs to reevaluate his commitment to CAP Core Values.  CAP is not their own little private club.

[SARDOC]

This started in the other thread when I stated that we get so many senior active/retired military officers O-5 and above.  That our group asks that the member be active in Civil Air Patrol long enough and at least earn a technician rating in the Professional Development program before being considered for advanced promotion IAW CAPR35-5  Sec C 3-4. 

Some say that they have earned the advanced promotion because of their Prior Service in the Military and that it should be approved.

It was decided that the regulation reads in

3-1. General.   In consideration of appointment to certain key positions in CAP, special
educational qualifications, or previous CAP or military experience, certain senior members who
meet the minimum requirements outlined in  1-6 above are eligible for initial appointment or
promotion to a grade commensurate with their position or experience, as outlined below.  Future
advancement is subject to qualifying for a higher grade under these provisions or meeting the
duty performance eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph  2-1b above, whichever comes
first.  Promotion procedures are outlined in paragraph 1-8 above.  To be considered for this type
promotion, the member must meet the following minimum eligibility criteria:
a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
d. Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
e. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

Please note it does not specify a recommended evaluation/probationary period or even what constitutes "Performing in an exemplary manner".
We figured that if the member stays involved and participates long enough and in an exemplary manner at a minimum the member should have achieved a technician rating...in something.   Showing up for six months completing the required safety briefings and maybe earning their GES shouldn't be "exemplary" enough to warrant Lieutenant Colonel in CAP.