SKY SECTIONAL

[SARDOC]

CAP Member Benefits lists Sky Sectionals as a benefit of membership.  From Looking at their website it appears that they provide you an electronic copy of current sectionals with CAP SAR grids overlaid.  Has anyone ever used this service and what do you think of it?  I'm not sure I would use it sectionals at the FBO are cheaper...not sure I see the "Benefit"

[ProdigalJim]

Hi,

Because it's not legal for navigation, I think it's most useful for MS and MO. I used them extensively during aircrew school in July. It was certainly a convenience for an MO. You can print out gridded portions in 8X10 sheets, which can be folded to fit neatly on a kneeboard. You can annotate to your heart's content...because you can print out a dozen copies of the same set of grid squares if you like. Again, you're going to use real, current sectionals for actual aerial navigation, but as an MO keeping track of what you're doing, planning the mission, watching the G-1000, etc., I found it to be a boon.

[Al Sayre]

^^+1

[SARDOC]

I would think that since it's not legal for navigation you might as well just use SkyVector to print what you want for MO purposes.  It's free.

[JeffDG]

I would think that since it's not legal for navigation you might as well just use SkyVector to print what you want for MO purposes.  It's free.

Not sure Skyvector is "legal for navigation" either...then again, there's no legal requirement to have anything with you to start with. 

[SARDOC]

Not sure Skyvector is "legal for navigation" either...then again, there's no legal requirement to have anything with you to start with. 

I don't believe it is which is why I was saying for Mission Observer Purposes.  You can screen shot area you want and print it...instead of paying 10 dollars to do the same thing with sky sectional.  The only difference is sky sectional will overlay the CAP grid on the sectional...I can do that.

[N Harmon]

Can someone explain what "legal for navigation" means, and what the rules that make something that are?

[Short Field]

There is no such thing as "Legal for Navigation" for a chart.  Per FAA, "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight."  They then add "That legally means that if you failed in your preflight preparations to notice a new restricted area and you violated that restricted area because you used non current charts, well, that's another ball game (in other words, you are in trouble)."

I couldn't find where CAP requires a current chart in the regulations.  It must be in the regs someplace...

Would I fly or even fly with someone who doesn't have a current chart -- No!

[ProdigalJim]

There is no such thing as "Legal for Navigation" for a chart.  Per FAA, "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight."  They then add "That legally means that if you failed in your preflight preparations to notice a new restricted area and you violated that restricted area because you used non current charts, well, that's another ball game (in other words, you are in trouble)."

I couldn't find where CAP requires a current chart in the regulations.  It must be in the regs someplace...

Would I fly or even fly with someone who doesn't have a current chart -- No!

Fair enough. But the SkySectionals print out says in teeny type something along the lines of "not legal for navigation," which I suppose means "it's not our fault if we're out of date on a Restricted Area/MOA/obstacle because you shoulda had a real sectional with you."

Yeah, I could draw my grid on a printout, but I just find it a convenience, especially if I'm MO and I've got a Scanner to give a copy to.

[sardak]

For a reference to the chart requirements, or lack thereof, the following is from:  http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q2f

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?

The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

   3. ..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
   4. ..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
   5. "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken.

But the FAA recommends that a pilot "carry a current chart for safety's sake."  I didn't find any reference to charts in the CAP regs, either. The closest "requirement" I could find is in task O-2106, Plan and Command a CAP Flight. Step 2f states "Ensure your aeronautical charts are current." In P-2007 Discuss Mission Observer Duties and Responsibilities, it states that "current charts" should be on the observer's checklist.

Mike

[JeffDG]

Would I fly or even fly with someone who doesn't have a current chart -- No!

Would I?  On a VFR day, absolutely I would.

Charts are out of date before they even come out of the printers.  If you're low enough that you're dodging towers, then I can tell you it's not going to be done by looking at the chart.  The only things I really refer to a sectional for anymore are frequencies and airspace.  Airspace doesn't change very often, and I can check the frequencies on a current chart that I download from the FAA for free to confirm they match the old sectional.

Now, if you're talking IFR, you have a different conversation.  But, again, all that's required for approach plates is that you confirm that you have the current revision (the Amdt on the lower left on NACO) for any approach you intend to fly, not that the book be updated or anything like that.

[Short Field]

and I can check the frequencies on a current chart that I download from the FAA for free to confirm they match the old sectional.

So you updated your chart...

I fly in airspace with multiple class B, D, and restricted areas.   

[JeffDG]

and I can check the frequencies on a current chart that I download from the FAA for free to confirm they match the old sectional.

So you updated your chart...

I fly in airspace with multiple class B, D, and restricted areas.   

And how often do those airspace boundaries change?

[Short Field]

I have never found water in my fuel tanks either but that doesn't stop me from draining the sumps on the tanks every time I fly.   If you feel safe, by all means go ahead and fly with whatever you want.   

[JeffDG]

I have never found water in my fuel tanks either but that doesn't stop me from draining the sumps on the tanks every time I fly.   If you feel safe, by all means go ahead and fly with whatever you want.

If you seriously contend that flying with expired sectionals is a safety issue on a VFR day, then that's an issue.

If you think that a sectional, that are often outdated before they ever get to the printers, provides you with appropriate safety cushion, then I leave you to your delusions.

[Short Field]

I also wear suspenders.   

[JeffDG]

I also wear suspenders.   

Sorry...I was over the top there...please accept my apologies.

[Short Field]

No problem.

[Turbine 33]

Hi,

Because it's not legal for navigation, I think it's most useful for MS and MO. I used them extensively during aircrew school in July. It was certainly a convenience for an MO. You can print out gridded portions in 8X10 sheets, which can be folded to fit neatly on a kneeboard. You can annotate to your heart's content...because you can print out a dozen copies of the same set of grid squares if you like. Again, you're going to use real, current sectionals for actual aerial navigation, but as an MO keeping track of what you're doing, planning the mission, watching the G-1000, etc., I found it to be a boon.

I believe we attended the same Air Crew school in July. That was quite an experience.

[Robborsari]

There is also a set of gridded PDFs at www.cap-es.net.  There is a lot of other good stuff there too.