Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon

[Major Carrales]

When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

I know...but a Chaplain "pops off" at God when they pop  off at all.  

Chaplain have a great responsibility and purpose.  They have to understand that their position in the Cloth is one that commands restraint.  A Man of the Cloth is not like an ordinary man.

Its sort of like Boxing with the Bishop of Corpus Christi in a Boxing ring for exercise or sport, how can one possibly win? (especially if you are Catholic)

[Major Carrales]

And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...

Well, they are taking shots at one another.

Now, to refocus the issue...

ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

[MIKE]

And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...

Well, they are taking shots at one another.

Point taken.   

[sandman]

When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

I know...but a Chaplain "pops off" at God when they pop  off at all.  

Chaplain have a great responsibility and purpose.  They have to understand that their position in the Cloth is one that commands restraint.  A Man of the Cloth is not like an ordinary man.

Its sort of like Boxing with the Bishop of Corpus Christi in a Boxing ring for exercise or sport, how can one possibly win? (especially if you are Catholic)

Thanks Joe for elevating the mood


On to the Topic: I'm strongly for introducing the CAP marksmanship ribbon and associated accrutrements

[arajca]

During my design stages for a couple of awards, I asked Vanguard for a list of which ribbon designs they have that are currently available. They used to have a small, low quality set of pictures available online, but that section is gone. (It was on their main site, not CAPStore.)

Beth sent me eight .tif's each of which pushed 10Mb in size and are beautiful, full color, larger than life sets. They have a couple hundred ribbons available and, no AD military ribbons are on the images - at least as far as I can tell - but some current CAP ones are.

If you have a particular color scheme in mind, let me know and I'll see if it is available and put it up here. If you want the set, you need to have high-speed internet or you'll spend the rest of the month receiving them. If you want the set, pm me.

DNall's design is not available.

[sandman]

During my design stages for a couple of awards, I asked Vanguard for a list of which ribbon designs they have that are currently available. They used to have a small, low quality set of pictures available online, but that section is gone. (It was on their main site, not CAPStore.)

Beth sent me eight .tif's each of which pushed 10Mb in size and are beautiful, full color, larger than life sets. They have a couple hundred ribbons available and, no AD military ribbons are on the images - at least as far as I can tell - but some current CAP ones are.

If you have a particular color scheme in mind, let me know and I'll see if it is available and put it up here. If you want the set, you need to have high-speed internet or you'll spend the rest of the month receiving them. If you want the set, pm me.

DNall's design is not available.

I tried to look for the same images on vanguardmil.com but to no avail as they have revamped their website.

I like DNall's design, but the loom setup probably is costly. I would feel comfortable with selecting a ribbon from those already available for school spirit/ROTC etc.

As a Navy (former Army) person, I wouldn't mind suggesting the Navy scheme for accrutrements: plain ribbon for marksman; "S" for sharpshooter; "E" for expert. If there exists a need to add additional "levels" I would suggest adding a silver and/or bronze star with the "S" or "E".

[arajca]

Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

[Hawk200]

ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

Most of the CMP program badges are military in style, as the agency that runs it is part of the government. The fact that the program was initially run by the Army is primarily why their appearance is military "style".

The CMP Distinguished Shot badges are literally all the same, the only difference being the hanger. For the branches of service, the hanger states the branch of service. For the civilian flavor badges, the hanger has a bar with a "US" on a shield.

Here's a few links to the various Distinguished shot badges, it's a PDF file, should open alright in most browsers

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Distinguished_History.pdf (look at pages 27 and 28)

I've also attached just pages 27 and 28 to this post, so you can look at just those pages.

Took me forever to find that particular reference, been looking for something like it for months, guess it was my lucky day.

[sandman]

That being the case, why would we need a ribbon instead of the existing badge, and why should we do anything with programming when this is the limit (interest level) to which it's being utilized now? I have to answer those questions & strong enough to convince people.

I think the badge is great, however, there are a limited number of badges one can wear. I think a marksmanship ribbon would be well received for the recognition without creating too much clutter on the uniform.

[Major Carrales]

Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275

[arajca]

Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275

That just lists color combinations. It doesn't show the relative sizes of each color band on a ribbon.

[Major Carrales]

Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275

That just lists color combinations. It doesn't show the relative sizes of each color band on a ribbon.

Here is the part I was going to stress...

For a custom color combination, please call Glendale at 800-653-5515.

The vanguard ribbon chart...
http://www.vanguardmil.com/schoolribbon.html

[Hawk200]

I think the badge is great, however, there are a limited number of badges one can wear. I think a marksmanship ribbon would be well received for the recognition without creating too much clutter on the uniform.

With these badges, they're not really limited. I think these badges are worn on the pocket flap of male shirts, and about a half inch below ribbons for female blouses for every branch of service. On our service dress, it would be worn on the "welt pocket" centered (both male and female).

As far as CAP is concerned, there are no badges worn in that location. So wearing a marksmanship badge wouldn't create any of the "Do I wear this one, or that one?" decisions at all.

[MIKE]

There is a limit to the number of badges that can be worn on the uniform.

6-3. ... The maximum of four earned badges is authorized for wear on all blue service uniforms.

[Hawk200]

The is a limit to the number of badges that can be worn on the uniform.

6-3. ... The maximum of four earned badges is authorized for wear on all blue service uniforms.

I'm not even going to bother with the arguments, because my overall view is: So what?

From a practical viewpoint, very few people wear more than two or three anyway. And if I recall, CAP does not presently have any mandatory badges. A four badge maximum isn't a serious limitation at all.

[Guardrail]

From a practical viewpoint, very few people wear more than two or three anyway... A four badge maximum isn't a serious limitation at all.

That's true, though I'm sure Monty would disagree. 

And if I recall, CAP does not presently have any mandatory badges. 

That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

[Hawk200]

That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

There are a number places I think we should mirror the Air Force, but there are numerous other situations where I don't think it's necessary.

Besides, the major difference is that when the military issues you an item, they can full well require you to wear it. I think that since we don't issue any badges, we shouldn't require wear.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

[SAR-EMT1]

That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

There are a number places I think we should mirror the Air Force, but there are numerous other situations where I don't think it's necessary.

Besides, the major difference is that when the military issues you an item, they can full well require you to wear it. I think that since we don't issue any badges, we shouldn't require wear.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

I once knew of a cadet so poor that the only way he was a member was that some Seniors put together a fund for his dues. His uniforms were DRMO garbage (this is before the free uniform program)   But he took the best care of that uniform then any other cadet or senior and knew the cadet program backwards and sideways.... hes an AF E5 now, got in through out cadet upgrade program.
My point is that the free uniform program for cadets is truely a blessing for some.

[DNall]

Now, to refocus the issue...

ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

Just to be clear, the ribbon would still be for cadets, where emulation (as opposed to poser) is to be encouraged. That's kind of the point is to have them fired up about military service and equipped with skills that will make them successful there - recruiting/retnetion is a bonus. We just give them the skills & opportunity, not the shove in the back, and it's up to them to decide what to do with it.

I like the ribbon design cause it will be recognized by AF personnel & so will appeal to cadets, plus it takes down the all too common NRA badges & all that goes with them - frankly I think over association w/ NRA on the badges hurts the program. Making the ribbons is no big deal. We need a couple hundred a year in our Wg alone, I think the cost would be nicely covered.

The CMP badge, I think got explained The AF version is obviously better lookingo n our uniforms, since that's what it was designed for, but it is recogniztion by the AF of the same civilian accomplishment. I'd ask them permission to purchase & wear the AF versions or wear the civilian versions you're awarded for free, then leave it up to them. I don't think they'll authorize the AF versions. The point though is to give cadets something to aim for that they can take with them to the military, and by allowing adults to get that badge also we creat an infrastructure to support cadets going for it.

The NCSA is the capstone of the program. Reaching a prereq level in the NRA program come on out to SF orientation & see how exciting we can make AF cops look, and/or Special Tactics orientation where you can see how to be cooler than an Army Ranger while wearing blue & exposed to AE related CCT & Combat WX, both options as the backdrop to a shooting program.

[Major Carrales]

Dennis,

Can't you see, its better for the Wings to do this at the Encampment or for Units to sponsor their own markmanship program through NRA et al rather than have wings/national expend energy, money and resources better suited to aviation.

If a Wing can supplement Unit Markmanship inititives with surplus funds...yeah!!!  GO for it...but a national level marksmanship in house CAP program is a tad bit extra at best.

Now, I beleive in a markmanship program...but I think it needs to be "outsourced."

Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.  I think your designed ribbon woudl fot the bill nicely. 

I have to admit that I did not see your designed works until I got home.  The reason being that the server at my school was blocking the images.  Thus, my line "because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism" (or seen as it, by just about everyone)" was not directed at you.  I think my may have thought this and I am trying to mitigate that issue.

By "knock off" I meant the use of the USAF Small Arms expert with some device.  Your designed ribbon is unlike the original enough to pass, but in line with what the USAF offers.  It would represent som version of "tradition."