Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon

[BillB]

How did a simple thing like suggesting a cadet firearms training program end up being all these comments and suggestions about badges and ribbons? Why not go back to figuring out if a firearms program would be of value, and how to get started and leave the bling out of it?

[sandman]

The bling and the bang go hand in hand. It's about a para-military organization. We wear a resume on our shirts. Be proud of your accomplishments, otherwise I suggest that you go shoot with the Boyscouts (sorry BSA, no disrespect meant)

You are right though, about getting the program started I mean. We're jumping ahead of ourselves in getting the bling. We still need to get major support for the bang!!

There are programs in place, do we need to consolidate them or choose/modify one particular program?

[Major Lord]

One other thing about a CAP marksmanship program: What would it cost to do such a thing? Those pistols and rifles are gonna cost a pretty penny, and like DNall said, it's going to get someone in an uproar.

Any bona fide NRA sponsored range will have a youth rifle program. Our cadets can participate free of charge,and all rifles, ammo, targets, range time and volunteer coaches are provided by the range members.( Through NRA programs) Our cadets have an open invitation to come and shoot any time at a local range on Youth Day (the first Saturday of every month)

Tags - MIKE

[Guardrail]

How did a simple thing like suggesting a cadet firearms training program end up being all these comments and suggestions about badges and ribbons? Why not go back to figuring out if a firearms program would be of value, and how to get started and leave the bling out of it?

Sir, the reason is because the title of this topic is "Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon."  My question is how did a simple thing like suggesting a CAP marksmanship ribbon turn into all these comment and suggestions about a CAP firearms program? 

Although I think it's a great idea, the CAP marksmanship program idea is probably better suited for another topic.  Besides, that makes it easier for a newbie to find it if they're interested.  No point in letting such a great idea get lost in a thread it isin't devoted to.

[DNall]

What idea? We already have a marksmanship program, or obviously we wouldn't be talking about a ribbon over the badge. Not much a stretch from there to revitalizing the program, insert NCSA idea for that purpose; CMP recognition to provide a higher goal to achieve, underlying concept to give cadets osmething they can carry with them to military service. That's all pretty tightly related, what's the problem?

[sandman]

What idea? We already have a marksmanship program, or obviously we wouldn't be talking about a ribbon over the badge. Not much a stretch from there to revitalizing the program, insert NCSA idea for that purpose; CMP recognition to provide a higher goal to achieve, underlying concept to give cadets osmething they can carry with them to military service. That's all pretty tightly related, what's the problem?

The problem is that we need to recognize our members for an achievement that is worthwhile...I believe that the marksmanship "program" within CAP is a worthwhile program although some CAP members apparently have more than a mild dislike for firearms and training our youth in the proper use thereof.

Sure, the program needs revitalization. There are several great suggestions on this thread. But an important part of this program is recognition for the accomplishments.

To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you.

"Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"  ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back.

On other threads people spout "I'd volunteer even if the prescribed uniform was skivvies....or nothing at all". Ya sure, whatever. Why CAP then? There are great soup kitchens to help those in need (Yes, I've volunteered there too). There are many venues that don't require or prescribe a uniform.

Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen.

[/soapbox=venom]

[DNall]

Hey I agree with you, but I gotta play a little devil's advocate cause at some point I have to convince people that aren't on the same page.

Fact is we got an existing program that's there if Wgs want or allow it to be utilized. If not the cadet can individually complete the requirements. And they can wear the silly looking NRA badges.

That being the case, why would we need a ribbon instead of the existing badge, and why should we do anything with programming when this is the limit (interest level) to which it's being utilized now? I have to answer those questions & strong enough to convince people.

Most of the problem is lawyers, or the "GaSPers" (  ) freakin out that we'd do anything that might relate to the military. Those are the same ones saying the point of the cadet program is to create senior members. Yeah right. Too many people buying the propaganda written for worreid moms. There's also some issue with using the NRA name, which is why I go along with a ribbon & I think I can get people who dislike the program to appreciate it being de-emphasized to a ribbon.

The back side of that would be NB just endorsed having a marksman program cause look they created a new ribbon for it that looks like the AF ribbon. Okay, that means the legal issues are BS & they want Wgs to get these things going, & lets get the NCSA off the ground as an incentive to advance in the program. Turn the whole thing into a recruiting & retention effort.

Devil's in the details though. We have to walk it past the gaspers & lawyers on the way thru, & I need ammo for that (pun intended).

[Hawk200]

Vote for civilian CMP badge, got it. No problem there. I don't think the AF would allow us to get the AF badges anyway, and the CMP ones aren't bad, even if they're gold w/ the Army shield prominantly on them.

The Excellence in Competion badges that I've seen are in bronze and silver colors. The only gold ones I know of are the Distinguished Rifle or Pistol shot badges, or the International shooter badges. I can find pics all over the web for those, but the EIC suff comes up lacking except for the service specific models.

For the most part, we would probably see people wearing bronze and silver badges. Only the most dedicated will get the Distinguished badges. And the silver and bronze ones don't look bad.

[DNall]

I just meant not highly polished silver like other AF badges, which I think it really why there are service specific badges. No, they do't look bad though. I don't think you'll see many of them in any color to be honest, but it's a nice program for people to shoot for (more pun intended) & a way for adults to get involved that will have them in the wings to support the cadet side. Just trying to create a progression that leads to something useful.

[Hammer]

We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges, which are here: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars

If you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle, and only basic cadets & junior staff get to shoot (upper cadet staff is busy). That means people never get out of the bottom couple awards.

AFROTC shoots at field training. If they shoot expert they get the AF robbon, if sharpshooter or marksman than they get a blue & red ribbon that goes away when they commission, of course in order to go to FT they are techincally in the AF.

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):

Sir, where did you get the design for the NRA Ribbon?  Did you photoshop the Air Force Small Arms Expert Ribbon, or does the NRA actually have a ribbon?

[DNall]

No, obviously I PS'd the AF ribbon.

[Chaplaindon]

Sandman wrote, "To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you ... 'Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"   ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back ... Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen."

As you are an obvious bigot, I "sir" (term used VERY loosely) am done with you.

At least soup kitchens do some good --they feed the hungry-- whereas attitudes such as your's "sir" --- "... those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo ... I'm done with you"--- only hurt. CAP needs fewer members like this rather than more fruit salad on our shirts.

Maybe a personal visit to a soup kitchen would give you access to some brain food and some humility.

How's about a special marksmanship ribbon for ignorantly shooting yourself in the foot?

[sandman]

Sandman wrote, "To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you ... 'Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"   ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back ... Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen."

As you are an obvious bigot, I "sir" (term used VERY loosely) am done with you.

At least soup kitchens do some good --they feed the hungry-- whereas attitudes such as your's "sir" --- "... those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo ... I'm done with you"--- only hurt. CAP needs fewer members like this rather than more fruit salad on our shirts.

Maybe a personal visit to a soup kitchen would give you access to some brain food and some humility.

How's about a special marksmanship ribbon for ignorantly shooting yourself in the foot?

Pardon me Sir, you have a right to your opinion and so do I. If you feel a strong need to "council" me, I invite you to do so in a PM.

I feel a great urge to contact Major General Baldwin and Colonel Sharp to discuss your discourse, if you're in fact credentialed as a chaplian with CAP.

[DNall]

I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

[sandman]

I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

I agree. I PM'd the good chaplian and invited him to discuss this over the phone. I feel that He did not understand the context of this thread or the subtle sarcasm prevalent within my post(s).

This might need to be discussed on a new thread.

Secondly, if you take the time and read through Chaplaindon's posts, you might find an interesting, possibly uncomfortable, undertone.

[DogCollar]

I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

Okay, let's take a big deep breath.
I hope that I haven't been one of the Chaplain's "popping off?"  I invite anyone to please tell me if I am? 

I think it should be evident to everyone that there are strong opinions held by those who frequent this board.  That being said, it also incumbent upon us all to reign in our public opinions from time to time and use personal messaging when we intend to confront another's integrity, behavior, opinion, etc...

I hope that we can agree that we should all comport ourselves as ladies and gentlemen and officers of CAP!?

[sandman]

Thank you Chaplain Bolden for the redirect.

I respect those members who choose to wear only GSP's. I only mean to highlight that the CAP is a para-military organization and those who do not care to wear the uniform and the associated "bling" might want to reconsider their reason to associate within a military organizational structure.

[Major Carrales]

When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

[sandman]

When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

[MIKE]

And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...