Heavy losses in helicopter crash in Afghanistan

[Senior]

Army aircrew, Air Force Combat Controllers and Navy SEALS lost in helicopter
crash.  I have been depressed all night upon reading the story of the crash.
Sorry, I don't know how to put a link with this post.   

[DakRadz]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/06/3820793/ap-sources-crash-kills-members.html

Here are a few.

As stated, several services and specialties were involved.
On the SEALs- While none were of the bin Laden raid, they were DEVGRU. No survivors. CH-47 was shot down with an RPG, during exfil. They had completed their mission...

RIP Warriors. Valhalla's halls await.

[PHall]

From what I've put together from listening to NPR and CBC.
MH-47 from 160th SOAR with 20 SEALS, 4 CCT, 7 Afghani Commandos, 1 Dog with Handler and 1 Civilian Terp.
Supposedly brought down with an RPG while on final approach to their target.

Rest in Peace Gentlemen, Rest in Peace.

[Flying Pig]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/06/3820793/ap-sources-crash-kills-members.html

Here are a few.

As stated, several services and specialties were involved.
On the SEALs- While none were of the bin Laden raid, they were DEVGRU. No survivors. CH-47 was shot down with an RPG, during exfil. They had completed their mission...

RIP Warriors. Valhalla's halls await.

Contrary to popular media belief, SEAL Team 6 hasnt existed for years. They were actually disbanded in the late 80's-early 90s.  DEVGRU (Naval Special Warfare Development Group) IS essentially SEAL Team 6.

[RADIOMAN015]

 Afghanistan = Viet Nam, what more can be said other than the needless loss of American lives    At least there were some Afghan personnel on the flight for the fight.

So how many more American lives, (so far over 1500 in Afghanistan) see: http://icasualties.org/oef/   & trillions of dollars (which we don't have) See:  http://costofwar.com/en/ will be spent by an inept civilian leadership on both sides of the political spectrum .
RM   

[DakRadz]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/06/3820793/ap-sources-crash-kills-members.html

Here are a few.

As stated, several services and specialties were involved.
On the SEALs- While none were of the bin Laden raid, they were DEVGRU. No survivors. CH-47 was shot down with an RPG, during exfil. They had completed their mission...

RIP Warriors. Valhalla's halls await.

Contrary to popular media belief, SEAL Team 6 hasnt existed for years. They were actually disbanded in the late 80's-early 90s.  DEVGRU (Naval Special Warfare Development Group) IS essentially SEAL Team 6.

Understood, sir. That's why I didn't say ST6. bin Laden was killed by DEVGRU, and the SEALs killed on this mission were DEVGRU but not the same group as Laden.

Apparently, DEVGRU has been disbanded as well, we just don't know the name of the current incarnation of those SEALs- but essentially the same, as you said.
I don't want to get this thread OT, so PM me if necessary and I can edit this if I'm wrong.

[Major Lord]

Army aircrew, Air Force Combat Controllers and Navy SEALS lost in helicopter
crash.  I have been depressed all night upon reading the story of the crash.
Sorry, I don't know how to put a link with this post.   

I know just how you feel. Its funny, the media tries to spin this as a crash, but it was not a crash; They were killed by the actions of an enemy we cannot even name for fear of political correctness. These men did not sacrifice themselves, they had their lives torn from them. Unlike the civilians murdered on September 11th, they had the means and the opportunity to fight back against a foe many Americans are afraid to call "evil". Dying for your country is easy; People do it every day. These were the kind of men who would fight for  their country, who would kill for their country, but most importantly would Live for their Country. Just a few years ago, we saw images of Americans jumping from a burning skyscraper ( before these images were censored by Government/Media symbiotic parasitism) and within days, these same censors were asking us to forgive and forget, to begin the "healing" process, to seek "closure".  Screw closure! Whether we acknowledge it or not, our enemy is main-stream Islam, whose written books call for a war to be waged upon all of us until we submit, die, or convert, until the black flag of Islam flies over the world as a single Caliphate. Although our Government can afford to be "sensitive", the men on board that helicopter I am sure knew that they had an enemy who had the goal of laying waste to the entire world, and they knew only men like them could stop it. I like many of you, grieve for these men and their families, and what their loss means to their families and the special warfare community. My grief is hardened with anger, and frustration with a Leadership that seems intent not to let us actually win by wiping out this enemy; By seeming to care more for the "Rights" of terrorists than the deaths of Americans, whose timidity in the face of a tyrannical, evil and murderous ideology has us waging a war of half-way measures. I guess I am just pissed off......

Major Lord

[AngelWings]

Army aircrew, Air Force Combat Controllers and Navy SEALS lost in helicopter
crash.  I have been depressed all night upon reading the story of the crash.
Sorry, I don't know how to put a link with this post.   

I know just how you feel. Its funny, the media tries to spin this as a crash, but it was not a crash; They were killed by the actions of an enemy we cannot even name for fear of political correctness. These men did not sacrifice themselves, they had their lives torn from them. Unlike the civilians murdered on September 11th, they had the means and the opportunity to fight back against a foe many Americans are afraid to call "evil". Dying for your country is easy; People do it every day. These were the kind of men who would fight for  their country, who would kill for their country, but most importantly would Live for their Country. Just a few years ago, we saw images of Americans jumping from a burning skyscraper ( before these images were censored by Government/Media symbiotic parasitism) and within days, these same censors were asking us to forgive and forget, to begin the "healing" process, to seek "closure".  Screw closure! Whether we acknowledge it or not, our enemy is main-stream Islam, whose written books call for a war to be waged upon all of us until we submit, die, or convert, until the black flag of Islam flies over the world as a single Caliphate. Although our Government can afford to be "sensitive", the men on board that helicopter I am sure knew that they had an enemy who had the goal of laying waste to the entire world, and they knew only men like them could stop it. I like many of you, grieve for these men and their families, and what their loss means to their families and the special warfare community. My grief is hardened with anger, and frustration with a Leadership that seems intent not to let us actually win by wiping out this enemy; By seeming to care more for the "Rights" of terrorists than the deaths of Americans, whose timidity in the face of a tyrannical, evil and murderous ideology has us waging a war of half-way measures. I guess I am just pissed off......

Major Lord

Your comments about Islam are extremely offending. I do not know why you would blame 2.5-3 billion people to be muderous SOBs, but that is wrong. Most of the problems lay with the Shi'a sect, they are the nut jobs, they were the murderous people who would torture their own in Iraq. It is in their belief to kill everybody else. Then there is everybody else, the Sunni. They are very peaceful people. I haven't seen the other 3 billion people coming over here and crashing planes into us.

[ol'fido]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/06/3820793/ap-sources-crash-kills-members.html

Here are a few.

As stated, several services and specialties were involved.
On the SEALs- While none were of the bin Laden raid, they were DEVGRU. No survivors. CH-47 was shot down with an RPG, during exfil. They had completed their mission...

RIP Warriors. Valhalla's halls await.

Contrary to popular media belief, SEAL Team 6 hasnt existed for years. They were actually disbanded in the late 80's-early 90s.  DEVGRU (Naval Special Warfare Development Group) IS essentially SEAL Team 6.

SEAL 6 to my understanding evolved into DEVGRU to distance itself from it's first commander, Richard Marcinko, who was convicted, rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion, of defrauding the government. The specific charges were related to improper use of government funds on expense accounts. DEVGRU may have changed it's designation as well. These units often do or they will have several different cover organizations. 1st SFOD-D has been known as Delta, Delta force, the Dreaded "D", Combat Applications Group(CAG), etc. throughout it's existence. It's even been referred to as Blue Light which was an interim unit the 5th SFGA put together while SFOD was training up.

[ol'fido]

Afghanistan = Viet Nam, what more can be said other than the needless loss of American lives    At least there were some Afghan personnel on the flight for the fight.

So how many more American lives, (so far over 1500 in Afghanistan) see: http://icasualties.org/oef/   & trillions of dollars (which we don't have) See:  http://costofwar.com/en/ will be spent by an inept civilian leadership on both sides of the political spectrum .
RM

You're always worried about the cost of everything. Money is not and should not be the most important factor in steps we take to preserve our national security. It's a war. Wars are by definiton messy and inefficient. I suppose we could have lobbed a few cruise missiles in, declared victory, and called it a day.

[Flying Pig]

Littleguy.  The 20011 Census indicates there are 1.7 billion people who claim to by Muslim.  Not 3 billion. 

DakRadz.
My mistake, I misread your post.  I thought you were saying these SEALs were not involved in the OBL raid because they were DEVGRU.  Thats why I was saying DEVGRU was who did OBL raid.  Clear as mud?

By Littleguy
Then there is everybody else, the Sunni. They are very peaceful people.

Go over to the middle east, stand outside and yell "Im an American" and see what happens.  Short of doing it in Israel you might have a rude awakening. By the way, Saddam Hussein was Sunni.  Not to be confused with his Ba'ath Party.

[CAP4117]

Major Lord:
"our enemy is main-stream Islam, whose written books call for a war to be waged upon all of us until we submit, die, or convert, until the black flag of Islam flies over the world as a single Caliphate"

Cite please. Main-stream Islam values nonviolence. It's the radical fundamentalists that we need to worry about.

"...Leadership that seems intent not to let us actually win by wiping out this enemy"

Are you implying that we should wipe out those who practice main-stream Islam? If so, I find that very disturbing.

[RADIOMAN015]

Afghanistan = Viet Nam, what more can be said other than the needless loss of American lives    At least there were some Afghan personnel on the flight for the fight.

So how many more American lives, (so far over 1500 in Afghanistan) see: http://icasualties.org/oef/   & trillions of dollars (which we don't have) See:  http://costofwar.com/en/ will be spent by an inept civilian leadership on both sides of the political spectrum .
RM

You're always worried about the cost of everything. Money is not and should not be the most important factor in steps we take to preserve our national security. It's a war. Wars are by definiton messy and inefficient. I suppose we could have lobbed a few cruise missiles in, declared victory, and called it a day.

It isn't the most important factor, it's the loss of American lives, in countries that the people don't have the overwhelming will to maintain any of those gains made by American's shedding blood.  This national security straw man argument would have us also invading Somalia, Yemen, and other countries (e.g. African continent) where the central government is about to become/or is non existent and is a great place for terrorist training camps.   Also nation states such as Iran.   Remember that the premise for invading Iraq (weapons of mass destruction) was false, and due to American nationalism after 911, a demand for a more critical look was needed by both political parties.  Even General Powell became a pawn in the administration's deceit to the American people .

Now as far as costs go, it's expensive to be in a war.  Not only do military personnel, in our all volunteer force get killed but they get seriously injured and that cost of care is very expensive.  It stands to reason that you need more tax revenue to support this.  You can't give tax cuts and expect the deficit not to rise, since you are incurring costs that otherwise wouldn't be.   Again check out the website http://costofwar.com/en/.  An article in the Washington Post claims the Iraq war cost over $3 Trillion dollars. 

Just remember big budget cuts are on the way and it is very likely that DOD/military is going to take a very big cut, and this will affect Civil Air Patrol's operations also.

As far as the warriors that were killed, my prayers and condolences go out to their families, friends, and units they belonged to
RM

               

[AngelWings]

Littleguy.  The 20011 Census indicates there are 1.7 billion people who claim to by Muslim.  Not 3 billion. 

DakRadz.
My mistake, I misread your post.  I thought you were saying these SEALs were not involved in the OBL raid because they were DEVGRU.  Thats why I was saying DEVGRU was who did OBL raid.  Clear as mud?

By Littleguy
Then there is everybody else, the Sunni. They are very peaceful people.

Go over to the middle east, stand outside and yell "Im an American" and see what happens.  Short of doing it in Israel you might have a rude awakening. By the way, Saddam Hussein was Sunni.  Not to be confused with his Ba'ath Party.

The middle east is not a great place to compare to everybody else. I did have facts wrong, but my major point is still valid. If every muslim was a american hating killer, than we'd be fighting a portion of our American population, and a good portion on the world. It isn't about the middle east, one man here accused ALL Muslims of being whacked out like the middle east.

[Flying Pig]

Here is my view.  There are people who are Muslim, practice aspects of it, live by certain principles and then there are REAL Muslims.  The real Muslims are the ones we are fighting.  Where people get that Islam is a religion of peace has bought into American medias portrayal of Islam.  Islam has destroyed every area where it has taken dominance.  Look at the UK. Islam is reshaping that country, and not for the better.  There are areas of the UK that are now completely Muslim where the police dont even go anymore because of fear.  Islam is a political ideology disguised a a religion.  Their own courts and punishments that are carried out with legal authority where it has taken hold.  Understanding just that aspect if Islam will show you there is nothing peaceful about it.

[JK657]

I am disappointed that thread meant to honor and respect fallen warriors has turned into a religious debate. How about we focus on all of those who lost their lives and on this forum leave it at that. I am currently deployed to Afghanistan and have plenty of opinions about the current war, Islam and the Afghan government but I won't post them here because this is neither the time nor the place. Lets take this time to honor those who paid the ultimate price...

Just my opinion

[NIN]

I am disappointed that thread meant to honor and respect fallen warriors has turned into a religious debate. How about we focus on all of those who lost their lives and on this forum leave it at that. I am currently deployed to Afghanistan and have plenty of opinions about the current war, Islam and the Afghan government but I won't post them here because this is neither the time nor the place. Lets take this time to honor those who paid the ultimate price...

Just my opinion

^This!

(And thanks for being out there. Keep your head down and be safe!)

[bosshawk]

JK657: you are spot on, this thread should have nothing to do with anything except honoring those who died.  Politics and religion are hopeless topics to discuss and they have no business being brought up here.  30 Americans died after being hit by an RPG: as a winning race car driver said on national TV yesterday: he wasn't a hero, those guys in Afghanistan were.

Having been through a tour in Viet Nam and having been shot at in an aircraft in Korea, my greatest love and affection to those guys and their families.

Thank you for your service.

[Major Lord]

Major Lord:
"our enemy is main-stream Islam, whose written books call for a war to be waged upon all of us until we submit, die, or convert, until the black flag of Islam flies over the world as a single Caliphate"

Cite please. Main-stream Islam values nonviolence. It's the radical fundamentalists that we need to worry about.

"...Leadership that seems intent not to let us actually win by wiping out this enemy"

Are you implying that we should wipe out those who practice main-stream Islam? If so, I find that very disturbing.

There are over 100 versus in the Qua'an alone that call for Holy War to be waged against Christians and Jews. You have it wrong exactly 180 degrees; The more passive peace loving sects and sub-groups of Islam are the spin-offs from the main stream, not the other way around. In the same way that most Christians would define a fundamental tenet of Christianity as believing that Jesus rose from the dead, you will find  subgroups that find that to be only a metaphor, symbolism, or allegory, and yet still believe themselves to be Christians. I do in fact believe that we should "wipe out " ( by breaking their will, decapitating their leadership, and taking away their means of waging war, not just exclusively by killing them) practitioners of main stream Islam, and support the minority practitioners who have forsaken violent overthrow of the world and embraced peace. The Laws of Sharia are the most evil set of values ever created by man, but if you like them I am sure you will have a chance to see for yourself what Islam has sown.

As to honoring those who died, of course it is a matter of politics and religion! Would we be honoring a bus load of lawyers who sank in deep water? I think not, because our common ethos has us believe that death in battle represents heroic self sacrifice. If our warriors died for a cause our leadership betrays, the death is still honorable, but even more tragic. Like our experiences in Viet Nam, our leadership lacked the gonads to actually win, and you don't spend American lives to fight for a tie or a loss; you fight to win or get the heck out. Yes, of course we are fighting a religious war; its just that our side does not have the honesty to admit what the enemy has made abundantly clear; Its us or them, with no middle ground, and the cause and goal is Allah.

This thread did not originate with a post about honoring the Seals and others killed in the RPG attack, which would have been a perfectly acceptable purpose. These were great Americans. The thread originated with a man posting his feelings of frustration over the loss of American fighting men of the highest caliber, and a tragedy of this nature should make us examine the causes, responsibilities, and even blame for those responsible. You seem to think it was just a few wild and crazy kids with an RPG playing a prank, but I view it as part of a concerted attack on America itself. Although not all those who practice Islam carry out Jihad and strive to create a worldwide Caliphate, this is the orthodox view of Islam, not the view of a tiny number of fanatics.

Major Lord