PT standards lowering

[kd8gua]

I always thought the PT standards were too tough. I was able to pass the PT tests prior to 2003, but the 03-present PT was next to impossible for me to pass. I spent close to a year as a C/SMSgt, and let my membership lapse because I couldn't pass PT.

Even today, I try to do the CPFT with the cadets, and I can't even get close to the Curry Achievement for a 12 year old. I do try to work out, but somehow I just have no ability to pass PT. I understand the plight of cadets who can't pass the CPFT, and that's why I feel it is much too tough.

Good thing I have no aspirations to join the military, I'd never make it through the physical training!

[Ron1319]

Well how many times a week did you train?  When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz.  It isn't supposed to be easy.  I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape.  I got old and fat.  I'm working on the fat part.  Can't do much about the age.

[ProdigalJim]

What is a PWIISXer?

[abdsp51]

The standards are too high umm really?  Lowering the standard is catering to folks who choose to not exercise and do something.  Most of the time since I have been back I have ran with the cadets when they have done their mile and have done something with them when it came to the situps at least.  I'm in my thirties and I was outrunning AD airmen who were 18+.   Todays society has become one of coddling and catering. 

[Pylon]

I think everyone is focusing too much on the test and standards, and not enough on the rest of the physical fitness program (or complete formal lack thereof).  It is by far the most formally neglected component of the five official cadet program elements and has the least materials, curriculum, guidance, and even the least SUI oversight.  No wonder we don't do so well at it!

Part of PT in CAP isn't just administering the test and then admonishing those who do poorly to "do better."   Well, we don't do that with leadership do we?  "You screwed up. Do better next time!"  Uhh, okay.  But how? 

It is true that PT in CAP is required by regulation to be more than just the CPFT, in every unit, without exception.  But what does more mean?  Does that mean once a month run the CPFT and on one other meeting, everyone plays soccer for 30 minutes? 

I took that to mean physical fitness education & mentoring being important components of physical fitness in CAP.

1.  Physical Fitness Education.  How should cadets learn what they need to be doing to improve not just their CPFT score but their overall level of fitness and physical health?  This should be an important part of our curriculum and unfortunately unless you have some "fitness literate" people in your unit, there's really not much provided by CAP to go off of.   We used to supplement physical fitness education by having one cadet per month (on a rotating basis) present a topic related to fitness of their choosing (and the C/CC's concurrence) to the squadron after the CPFT.  Extra-bonus since the cadet had to research & learn something new for themselves, everyone else learns one or two things from the presentation, and the presenting cadet worked on their public speaking skills all at the same time.

My question is: why don't we have better curriculum for teaching about fitness?  We've updated our leadership books about 4 times in the past decade or so.  But our physical fitness literature has remained at pretty much zero outside of some recommended stretches, warm-ups, and the CPFT guidelines.   It's a huge hole missing in our cadet programs library, and that right there sets the clear tone from higher that physical fitness is not as important as the four other (supposedly equal) program components to CP.

2.  Physical Fitness Mentoring/Feedback. How does a cadet know when his or her performance is good?  What's good about?  And where should they improve?  And how should they improve?   It's just accepted fact that we provide feedback to cadets on their leadership abilities and demonstrated traits (and even occasional formal feedback on other aspects, like speech and writing evaluation).   If a unit didn't provide feedback and guidance to cadets to become better at their staff roles and leadership abilities, we'd probably consider that a horrible unit.   So why don't we do the same with fitness?   The CPFT is just a measuring tool.  A measuring tool gives us data.  What do we do with that data?   We should periodically sit down with cadets (at minimum during their CAPF 50 reviews, but I'd say preferably more often) to look at their historical CPFT data.  Not just their last score, but the trend of their last 6-12 months of scores.  Are they getting better?  Stagnating?  Declining?  Even if they're passing, but they've stagnated at their current performance, I'd say that cadet still needs encouragement to improve.   And furthermore, we ought to be giving them some basic guidance on how to do that.  It can be as simple as "Hey, you're not adding any additional pushups and you're just scraping by.  By the time you get to Mitchell, if you don't add pushups you won't continue to pass.  Try banging out three max sets of pushups once a day -- maybe when you wake up in the morning.  And then we'll see how you do after a few months.  Can you agree to that?"

Again, the lack of tools and guidance from higher and the hole in these types of evaluation tools in our cadet programs library speaks volumes as to the implied importance of this aspect of our program.  We have CAPF 50, the table of expected leadership traits by phase, Cadet Super Chart, uniform inspection scorecards, and written and oral evaluation metrics.  But not a single tool to give physical fitness feedback.  I developed a basic physical fitness feedback form at my squadron when I was deputy commander for cadets to fill this gap, but it's only a start and a tool only works if you use it regularly and properly.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well how many times a week did you train?  When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz.  It isn't supposed to be easy.  I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape.  I got old and fat.  I'm working on the fat part.  Can't do much about the age.

This is under the old program isn't it?

Now the max is 51 in a minute for 17+ Males.

[lordmonar]

The CP pt standard *IS* the presidential fitness award.
phase 1 asks cadets to perform at the 25th percentile level at their age group.
spaatz asks cadets to perform at the 75th percentile level at their age group.


That's right, to get promoted to airman, you have to be only at or above the bottom 1/4th of American youth as measured by the presidential fitness standard.

Seriously...   ANYBODY with a little motivation and practice, can do that.

No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help.  CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".

Again as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....but again we do not have the time to help these cadets to get to that level.....and there fore we are telling 75% of our target audiance....You will never make Spaatz....and we see this with our dismal promotion rates.

Also I don't know how much validity this holds, but I think that the Mitchell requirement has historically been based on basic training accession standards...   Let's see, we ask a 17+ year old male going for the mitchell to:
Sit and Reach:  34
Curl Ups: 44
Push Ups:  37
Shuttle Run:  9.4
Mile Run:   7:04

Supposing that the cadet kept up the 7:04 pace for an additional half mile, that'd be a 10:36 mile and a half.

SO if that cadet went and did the USAF PT test, his score would be:
1.5 Mile:  57.3 points
Push Ups:  6.0 points (only 4 from failing pushups!!!)
Curl Ups:  6.5 points (only 2 from failing curl ups!!!)
The cadet would have to have a waist no bigger than 39 inches, for 12.6 points

So that gets a brand new E3 at basic training, an 82.4 on the AFPT, with pretty marginal scores on 2 events (!)
I think that any Mitchell cadet that we hand to the USAF, and that they give E-3 to based on that award,
should *AT LEAST* be able to do this minimum...  Seriously.  At the very least.
And that airman would be testing twice a year and possibly enrolled in FIP...

They also give E-3 for signing up for six year, for doing JROTC for three years (which does not have a PT requirment), and for having college credits...again not PT requirments.

So...while I agree that we do need to have some sort of standard......I think the standards we do have are not very inclusive.

I would suggest that we keep Mitchell standards where they are....so we don't throw a wrench in the works with the USAF and the E-3 thing.  But between Curry and Mitchell we work on a "base line-show improvement" in stead of a having set standards....we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.

[Eclipse]

No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help.  CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audience "Don't bother to join".

No, we're saying "be more", and dispelling the "everyone gets a trophy" culture.

I would suggest that we keep Mitchell standards where they are....so we don't throw a wrench in the works with the USAF and the E-3 thing.  But between Curry and Mitchell we work on a "base line-show improvement" in stead of a having set standards....we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.

This just doesn't work in practice.  Objective standards are a hallmark of CAP, and in this case they are more then reasonable.  Barring a legit medical waiver, the inability to be able to pass Phase 1 PT is a choice of personal focus.  We don't need to water the program down with another place that
well-intentioned, but misguided CC's can "do what's better for the cadet".

Just as with the PPFA, not everyone makes it, and that's the point.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No, we're saying "be more", and dispelling the "everyone gets a trophy" culture.

True,

But it is probably NOT the best place to roadblock the cadets.

I would be all up for making Curry with a L2L/AE/CD/Activities/Proper Uniform.

THEN, for Arnold we make the PT come in (like we have AE currently).

That way at least the cadet FEELS like a cadet with a stripe as opposed to a C/AB who may take a long time to get to the standard.

[Eclipse]

That's reasonable, at least they are more invested in the idea at that point.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Tat's reasonable, at least they are more invested in the idea at that point.

Exactly. If ever a change was made, this would probably be acceptable to both sides. Besides cheating, it's hard to keep a physically challenged cadet from quitting early on because they aren't motivated enough. It doesn't just affect their promotions, it affects all of their interest in CAP as a whole.

[Flying Pig]

In my 20 years in CAP, I have rarely ever seen a cadet who actually works out, fail PT.  The vast majority of cadets who have issues (aside from medical issues) dont work out, if they do work out, it IS NOT really working out.  Doing 10 push ups and running a couple times around the track a week before your PT test isnt working out.  Cadets dont go home and actually get into a work out routine.  Then they show up to PT night and wonder why they fail or dont do well.  All through out the month they continue to eat garbage and drink garbage and are not on any real workout or fitness routine.  The standards start off pretty weak, and progress as you progress.   Maybe a cadet might stay at a rank for a several months working towards their fitness.  So be it.  Probably one of my biggest observations at a CAWG cadet activity was the disturbing number of over weight squishy cadets with guts I saw walking around who were senior NCOs and Officers.   

I say let the cream rise to the top.  Life is full of hard lessons that usually start the day after you graduate high school.   Let them learn some of those lessons in CAP while they can still learn to recover from them and change their life style habits.   Hey you know what...... maybe not everyone gets to be a C/Capt or a C/Col.  Thems' the breaks.  But maybe Im just mean.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's completely reasonable. The "problem" I've had is when you get a new fired up cadet, and you can't pin them with even ONE stripe because they aren't in shape/are overweight.

WIWAC/1st Sgt & CC I would typically run PT with a cadet like that, set the pace for them, and hopefully get them to pass that first PT. But a lot of the time it took us a couple of sessions to get there.

I hated nothing more than seeing someone sour on that initial excitement just because of PT. It wasn't that they want to be C/Officers, it's that they want that FIRST stripe.

[RogueLeader]

What is a PWIISXer?

All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X.  Move S after the second I, run them together.

[Майор Хаткевич]

What is a PWIISXer?

All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X.  Move S after the second I, run them together.

I do believe now it has to be PWIISUXer, yes?

[RogueLeader]

Yup.  Just ask me. 

[RogueLeader]

As far as standards are, I think that they are whats needed.  I also happen to think that moving the 1st PT Test should be moved to the second achievement.  For the typical Curry Cadet, they may have only had 1 to 2 months of learning how to train their bodies.  Not very long.  3-4 months gives them more time to learn how to properly and safely do the events, as well as increase their endurance.  They also have to have time to go from their baseline capabilities to where the standards are. 

Even in Basic Training, you don't have to meet the Army Standard of 60 points to graduate.  You only need 50 points in each event.  To graduate AIT, you have to meet the 60 points to go to your regular unit. Ironically, my highest PT score was in AIT with a score of 244, out of 300.  I usually score mid 230's after that.

[jimmydeanno]

I think that the real trend is that the CPFT has become more rigorous over the years. 

IIRC, BITD, the CPFT consisted of only the mile run. 

Then the Situps and V-Sit were added with the point system (which was arbitrarily obtained). 

Now we have Run, Situps, Pushups, and V-Sit with an objective study backed scoring system. 

So, over the course of the years, we've gone from one event to four.  Seems more rigorous to me, not lowering.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think that the real trend is that the CPFT has become more rigorous over the years. 

IIRC, BITD, the CPFT consisted of only the mile run. 

Then the Situps and V-Sit were added with the point system (which was arbitrarily obtained). 

Now we have Run, Situps, Pushups, and V-Sit with an objective study backed scoring system. 

So, over the course of the years, we've gone from one event to four.  Seems more rigorous to me, not lowering.

We HAVE lowered it. Used to be you needed Mile/Shuttle and Pushups, Situps, Sit and reach. Now it's Run + 2.

[Ron1319]

Well how many times a week did you train?  When they added the sit up and sit and reach requirement, I had to do sit ups every other day for a year to be able to meet the 82 in two minute requirement for my Spaatz.  It isn't supposed to be easy.  I'm at the gym right now (literally sitting on the bench between sets) to try to get back in shape.  I got old and fat.  I'm working on the fat part.  Can't do much about the age.

This is under the old program isn't it?

Now the max is 51 in a minute for 17+ Males.

Yes.  Like I said, I'm old.  That doesn't change the point.  For the record, me saying I'm old is a bit tongue in cheek as I'm about to turn 35.