Lost Comm Procedure vs. Border Zone VFH 3000' Restriction

[smithwr2]

Which procedure trumps the other?

1.  WMIRS describes Air Force Frequency Restrictions for the Canadian border regions.  In these regions CAP's assigned VHF-FM frequencies may not under any circumstances be used above 3,000 feet AGL, based on international agreements.  See below fro detail.  Summary: don't transmit using the TDFM radio  above 3000 AGL.

2.  Then there's this ES Operations procedure for when aircrew cannot reach mission base to report their 'Ops Normal' at the top and bottom of the hour.  Action #1 in that procedure is to climb to a higher altitude to make radio contact.  Summary:  gain altitude and transmit using the TDFM radio.

Example:  In the Arlington area and the valleys to the east (e.g. Concrete area)  a climb to more than 3000' AGL is often required to communicate with mission base, so this question is not as hypothetical as you might think. 

Quandry:  Climbing above 3000 AGL and transmitting would bust the frequency restrictions.   Not climbing to altitude every 30 minutes to check in would bust the Operations procedures.

What would you do as a MP?  Depart the grid?  RTB?   Remember, there's no CAP radio contact below 3000'.  I suppose one could find the highest peak in the grid and enter a circling climb up to 3000'  AGL.   Perhaps there is the standby AM freq 123.1.    Other options?

Thank you for any thoughts on this,

Randy Smith
CAP 1Lt




"Fifth Area: Pacific Region – Washington State.

Simplex:  TAC 1 and AIR 1 may be used in the Border Zone without restriction other than the 3,000 foot AGL restriction. 

CC 1 may be used except for within 120 km distance of:

            Cowichan  48 49' 29"N X 124 03' 01"W

  CC 2, AIR 2 and CAPGUARD are not authorized within the Border Zone.

Repeater:   The input frequency used for CAP Channel 2 repeaters is not authorized within the Border Zone, therefore all CAP repeaters within or near the Border Zone have been moved to Channel 1.  Use of Channel 1 and Tactical repeaters is authorized within the Border Zone

Altitude Restrictions:  Within the Border Zone, CAP aircraft are only authorized to transmit below 3,000 feet AGL."

[PHall]

Can you contact another CAP aircraft on a UNICOM freq and have them relay?

[vento]

High bird should be deployed outside the 3000 ft agl corridor in the case you've described. Otherwise relay thru other assets or climb and communicate.

[SarDragon]

We have the same problem here in SoCal.

Our border zone is within 90 nautical miles of the border.

[bosshawk]

To add to the fun along the Mexican border in CA, the FM frequencies are loaded with Mexican cab companyies.  As a result, the CAP radio is useless in that area: we usually use VHF.

[argentip]

To add to the fun along the Mexican border in CA, the FM frequencies are loaded with Mexican cab companyies.  As a result, the CAP radio is useless in that area: we usually use VHF.

Emphasis mine.  Do you mean VHF-AM???

As for the OP's question, when I was in MIWG, we had very restrictive requirements as well, though we didn't have mountains to worry about getting in the way.  We almost always utilized a Highbird A/C (at or below 3000'AGL).  I would think that the majority of your search A/C would be able to reach the Highbird with no problem (unless you are trying to talk through the mountain, or are very far away from the Highbird).  You could also try to contact the ICP via ground repeaters (which are ussually placed on high elevations, anyways).  IMHO, transmitting above 3000' should only be done in an emergency.

The use of the VHF-AM SAR frequencies (123.1 - Primary and 122.9 - Secondary & Training) are for Inter-Agency Coordination and may not be used for Internal CAP Communication.

[arajca]

There are specific border zone frequencies that can be used. Contact YOUR wing DC for more info. Your wing Communications Operations and Training Plan should address these issues.

[JeffDG]

You could have an aircraft doing comm relay (not highbird as that's CAP frequencies) doing relay on 122.75 in the airband.  That's permitted for Air-to-Air comms.

Put an aircraft at 2,500' AGL talking on CAP frequencies and relaying traffic from other aircraft talking to them on 122.75

[argentip]

There are specific border zone frequencies that can be used. Contact YOUR wing DC for more info. Your wing Communications Operations and Training Plan should address these issues.

It was my understanding (but I haven't looked at it since the information first came out and we figured out what we could, and couln't, do) that the "nothing above 3000' AGL, period" requirement was true for all operations within the Border Zone.

I would second the suggest that he contact HIS Wing DC to get the official guidance on the question for HIS Wing, though.

[Larry Mangum]

HighBird's in WAWG are normally at around 8,500 to 10,000 feet in order to clear the mountains.

[Larry Mangum]

Which procedure trumps the other?

1.  WMIRS describes Air Force Frequency Restrictions for the Canadian border regions.  In these regions CAP's assigned VHF-FM frequencies may not under any circumstances be used above 3,000 feet AGL, based on international agreements.  See below fro detail.  Summary: don't transmit using the TDFM radio  above 3000 AGL.

2.  Then there's this ES Operations procedure for when aircrew cannot reach mission base to report their 'Ops Normal' at the top and bottom of the hour.  Action #1 in that procedure is to climb to a higher altitude to make radio contact.  Summary:  gain altitude and transmit using the TDFM radio.

Example:  In the Arlington area and the valleys to the east (e.g. Concrete area)  a climb to more than 3000' AGL is often required to communicate with mission base, so this question is not as hypothetical as you might think. 

Quandry:  Climbing above 3000 AGL and transmitting would bust the frequency restrictions.   Not climbing to altitude every 30 minutes to check in would bust the Operations procedures.

What would you do as a MP?  Depart the grid?  RTB?   Remember, there's no CAP radio contact below 3000'.  I suppose one could find the highest peak in the grid and enter a circling climb up to 3000'  AGL.   Perhaps there is the standby AM freq 123.1.    Other options?

Thank you for any thoughts on this,

Randy Smith
CAP 1Lt




"Fifth Area: Pacific Region – Washington State.

Simplex:  TAC 1 and AIR 1 may be used in the Border Zone without restriction other than the 3,000 foot AGL restriction. 

CC 1 may be used except for within 120 km distance of:

            Cowichan  48 49' 29"N X 124 03' 01"W

  CC 2, AIR 2 and CAPGUARD are not authorized within the Border Zone.

Repeater:   The input frequency used for CAP Channel 2 repeaters is not authorized within the Border Zone, therefore all CAP repeaters within or near the Border Zone have been moved to Channel 1.  Use of Channel 1 and Tactical repeaters is authorized within the Border Zone

Altitude Restrictions:  Within the Border Zone, CAP aircraft are only authorized to transmit below 3,000 feet AGL."

What does lt Col Vallee say about it?

[SARJunkie]

If you lose Comms, you do what you have to do to get them back.... go to the last point you had comms,  climb, cell phone, alternate freq.  the regs are great in all, but when it comes to safety throw the book out the door!  Do what you have to do to regain comms!

[davidsinn]

If you lose Comms, you do what you have to do to get them back.... go to the last point you had comms,  climb, cell phone, alternate freq.  the regs are great in all, but when it comes to safety throw the book out the door!  Do what you have to do to regain comms!

Being out of comms is not an unsafe condition that warrants breaking an international treaty.

[JeffDG]

If you lose Comms, you do what you have to do to get them back.... go to the last point you had comms,  climb, cell phone, alternate freq.  the regs are great in all, but when it comes to safety throw the book out the door!  Do what you have to do to regain comms!

I could agree with that if you lose your ATC comms in IFR, that can turn into a safety issue.  But losing CAP Comms is not something that permits violating FAA, FCC or other laws.  It's just not a safety of flight issue that warrants emergency authority.

[Spaceman3750]

Podunk Tower, this is CAP 12345. Terrain is preventing comm with mission base, when you have a moment will you call 555-1234 to let them know we're alright?

Of course, that might not fly everywhere but on a slow day it could work.

[Mark_Wheeler]

Podunk Tower, this is CAP 12345. Terrain is preventing comm with mission base, when you have a moment will you call 555-1234 to let them know we're alright?

Of course, that might not fly everywhere but on a slow day it could work.

FSS Would likewise be willing to pass that traffic I would imagine. I'm not sure but even an USAF base ops might be willing to assist as well.

Mark

[smithwr2]

Great discussion folks!

In Washington State it's true we often do have a HiBird up around 5000+...except when we don't.  For many of our statewide, remote launch SAR exercises we don't have HiBird.  I have used relays through other airborne assets, with some success.

Though on a real search we very likely would use HiBird and the lost comm problem would go away.

Randy Smith
(original poster)