Structural Change

[DrJbdm]

What CAP needs to focus on is four main areas. We need to structure our change around:

1) Emergency services/disaster relief...currently what our National Guard does.

2) Cadet Programs..... you can wrap the AE mission under Cadet Programs.

3) AF/ANG job relief (doing those jobs for AF/ANG that saves them money & allows them to complete the mission cheaper/faster/more efficient.

4) Homeland Security missions

  If we concentrate our mission these areas we would have a future and a role in the ever changing world. Of course in order to fully play ball on these areas we will need a complete structure/image change. We need to redefine what CAP does and what CAP is capable of doing.

[Earhart1971]

Earhart...

No, my opinion is Search and Rescue Operations are declining and the Sheriff Departments are taking over that.

Sheriffs, i.e. law enforcement, are not taking over SAR...they always HAD control over SAR.   CAP is a support asset to to the authority that is responsible for SAR.   This is what Congress meant in Title 36 when it talks about support to state and local authorities for emergency services. 

Nick Critelli

SAR is FLAT, and its not going to increase our membership or our Congressional Funding substantially, there is not enough of it to spread over the membership.

CAP needs to get exposure in the Middle Schools, I am talking 200 Cadet Squadrons, lots of need for Seniors with experience in running Squadrons.

We got tonnes of program to expose kids to between the ages of 12 and 18.

[Nick Critelli]

SAR is FLAT, and its not going to increase our membership or our Congressional Funding substantially, there is not enough of it to spread over the membership

If  that is the situation in your Wing you've got serious problems.  Are refering to ELT's when you claim that SAR is flat? SAR is  generic term that covers all types of actions  most importantly including lost or missing persons.  Even in a small state like Iowa there are hundreds of MP-SAR's a good percentage of which CAP could and does provide service. Who do you think pays for SAR's ...Congress in its funding for AFRCC for those missions that qualify. 

Does law enforcement need CAP...you bet it does.  I don't know of many local sheriff's offices that possess the trained air and ground assets that CAP does...at no cost or legal liability. It's a huge asset.

If your Wing is banking on CAP, USAF or Congress for your Wing's funding you're going to have nothing.  We get $100,000 a year because of our ES service.  That goes a long way in helping fund a cadet program. 

Fixed quote tags - MIKE

[Earhart1971]

SAR is FLAT, and its not going to increase our membership or our Congressional Funding substantially, there is not enough of it to spread over the membership

If  that is the situation in your Wing you've got serious problems.  Are refering to ELT's when you claim that SAR is flat? SAR is  generic term that covers all types of actions  most importantly including lost or missing persons.  Even in a small state like Iowa there are hundreds of MP-SAR's a good percentage of which CAP could and does provide service. Who do you think pays for SAR's ...Congress in its funding for AFRCC for those missions that qualify. 

Does law enforcement need CAP...you bet it does.  I don't know of many local sheriff's offices that possess the trained air and ground assets that CAP does...at no cost or legal liability. It's a huge asset.

If your Wing is banking on CAP, USAF or Congress for your Wing's funding you're going to have nothing.  We get $100,000 a year because of our ES service.  That goes a long way in helping fund a cadet program. 

Fixed quote tags - MIKE

Not referring to ELTs at all.

I am really talking about, people utilized for Ground Search. How many times has a Ground Team been deployed in your Wing in 06 for a real search, other than ELT searches?

I bet its less than 10 events in a year.

And CAP is going to get 99% of its funding from Congress, because that's where the money is. A Wing getting $50,000 from a State Government, a year is nothing, it pays admin cost.

You talk about "Wings" like it is now, every Wing for itself (getting funding from the states), now that is not going to grow anything.

I am sure some individual Wings, have a great SAR Mission, like Alaska, then others don't.

SAR does not sell (yes, we'll get funding for equipment, like expensive Airplanes) but do we have the funding to train crews (no), its paid for by individual Members.

We are doing SAR too too cheap, we have always done it cheap, and there is an expectation by Government that will we continue to do it on the cheap.

We could get more money for the SAR Mission, though, if the right people learned to talk to Congress about it.

Flying Missions for $75 an hour or even $100 per Hour is stupid, it should be more like $400 per hour.

The Cadet Program will sell, if we can penatrate into the Middle Schools.

[lordmonar]

SAR does not sell (yes, we'll get funding for equipment, like expensive Airplanes) but do we have the funding to train crews (no), its paid for by individual Members.

I got to throw the BS flag on this one...we have lots of funding for crew training.  Most of the hours flown is for crew proficiancy training and SAREXs and for the most part they are funded missions.

We are doing SAR too too cheap, we have always done it cheap, and there is an expectation by Government that will we continue to do it on the cheap.

We could get more money for the SAR Mission, though, if the right people learned to talk to Congress about it.

You know I was looking at some of the GAO reports (from that other thread) and one of the recurring problmes USAF has with CAP is just that.  Going to congress directly seeking funding.  If we want to improve our relaitonship with the USAF we can't be back dooring them on the funding issue.  There are only so many federal dollars to be had and if we compete with the USAF for those dollars then we become a liability to them.

Flying Missions for $75 an hour or even $100 per Hour is stupid, it should be more like $400 per hour.

You can rent airplanes retail for that kind of money.  The question is....what does it actaully cost to fly an 182 or 206?  $100/per hours is not a bad rate when you consider that the maintence is already paid for...all you are paying for is gas and oil.

The Cadet Program will sell, if we can penatrate into the Middle Schools.

That I agree with...but to effectively do that we need to make it across the board and not just at the middle school squadrons.  Lowering the age of entry was tried before and too many people has heart burn over it.  I personally think we should lower the age to 10 1/2 years and in the 5th grade (the same as the Boy Scouts) but that is a different thread.

Getting $50K from a state agency is not a drop in the bucket.  It is 500 flying hours.  If your state has 500 flying hours worth of missions for you....why not take it?

[Earhart1971]

We get funded from Congress, and we avoided a budget cut by going to Congress.

The Air Force wanted to cut 4 to 6 million out of our funding in 2006.

The Air Force found out they could not do that.

Tying our funding to the Air Force Budget is a mistake.

[lordmonar]

We get funded from Congress, and we avoided a budget cut by going to Congress.

The Air Force wanted to cut 4 to 6 million out of our funding in 2006.

The Air Force found out they could not do that.

Tying our funding to the Air Force Budget is a mistake.

Yes, we get funded by congress....anyone can get funded by congress.  What I was pointing out is that those of who want CAP to be the USAF-AUX all the time, have to accept that the single easist way to piss them off it to fight them over money.  If we want to go directly to congress for funding....fine....but we have to accept the consequences of the course of action. 

The USAF cut $4-6M out of our budget.....and they are cutting 40K blue suiters out of the force.  You cannot say "I want to be the USAF-AUX" and then go around them and back door them for money and expect them to be happy about it.

The USAF could care less about uniform changes and the name painted on the side of airplanes....but when you start competing with them for O&M funds, building constuction funds and weapoins system development and procurment funds....that is when the USAF will want to push us away.

[Earhart1971]

We get funded from Congress, and we avoided a budget cut by going to Congress.

The Air Force wanted to cut 4 to 6 million out of our funding in 2006.

The Air Force found out they could not do that.

Tying our funding to the Air Force Budget is a mistake.

Yes, we get funded by congress....anyone can get funded by congress.  What I was pointing out is that those of who want CAP to be the USAF-AUX all the time, have to accept that the single easist way to piss them off it to fight them over money.  If we want to go directly to congress for funding....fine....but we have to accept the consequences of the course of action. 

The USAF cut $4-6M out of our budget.....and they are cutting 40K blue suiters out of the force.  You cannot say "I want to be the USAF-AUX" and then go around them and back door them for money and expect them to be happy about it.

We are not "going around the Air Force"  and we are not competing with the Air Force.

The Air Force could do their own SAR in the Continental US for a about 500 million Dollars a year.  I don't think they are going to take that option and dump CAP as a USAF AUX anytime soon.

If we are afraid of the Air Force, and what they will think, sorry, its all lost.

When you deal with Generals in the Air Force, you are dealing with a highly Political Animal, that cannot go to the bathroom without permission.

And they have no money, the money is in Congress. A Congressman that happens to be a CAP Colonel, is pure terror to an Air Force General and to a Secretary of the Air Force.

[flapsUP]

Interesting...everyone has an opinion on everything based on nothing.

SARs are FLAT...are you crazy. CAP's involvement in SARs may be flat because we have not taken the time to work the relationships with state and local government to get them.  That's what Col. Critelli has been trying to tell us all.  Go read the Iowa Wing thread.  When there is a SAR in Iowa they are involved from the very beginning.  That's the service they give for the big bucks they receive. 

If there is one thing we can learn from the Iowa experience it is that your wing has to do its  due diligence.  To put it another way, an opinion based on nothing is worth nothing.

You say the cadet program will sell...my friend the cadet program is dying.  There are over 79,500,000 young people in the US. Boy Scouts have over 1,000,000 of them; JROTC has over 500,000.   CAP has 20,000.  You really believe that Congress is going to give you  big bucks for a program that reaches so small a group that most calculators can't even compute the minescule percentage. Get real.  The cadet program should be merged into jrotc and CAP tasked with providing aviation assistance "O" rides, etc.  to jrotc. 

Now for the money part.  Get off this USAF kick.  We're not the Air Force.  Heck we're not even the Air Force Auxiliary unless we're on an AFAM and then ONLY those members who are actually on the mission are considered Air Force Auxiliary.  We're civilians who have joined a federal corporation.  Go look at the postings on this thread.  Col. Critelli has set  the law all out for us.

You're worried about the AF getting rid of us...wakeup they already did. And that's not all that bad.  We can do a lot more now than we used to be able to do before the law change in 2000.  You talk about the AF doing SAR missions. The AF's main objective is to blow and shoot things up. They don't have an inland SAR mission, Coast Guard does. 

If CAP is going to survive it has to return to tangible basics...helping the nation by ES and DR.  Right now we have a lot of AF wannabes and not enough realists.

Count me in on the Webinar. Sounds like fun.

[lordmonar]

We are not "going around the Air Force"  and we are not competing with the Air Force.

According to the GAO report I read that is in fact what the USAF thinks we are doing.

The Air Force could do their own SAR in the Continental US for a about 500 million Dollars a year.  I don't think they are going to take that option and dump CAP as a USAF AUX anytime soon.

If we are afraid of the Air Force, and what they will think, sorry, its all lost.

Did not say the USAF was totally upset with us or that they are right now contemplating dumping CAP....but don't get stuck on the $500M mark.  There are lots of ways the USAF could drop CAP like a hot potato and still meet their SAR requirements.  Already there are other organizations that do airborne SAR and they already fund the AFJROTC program.  There is nothing that CAP is doing that cannot be replaced.

When you deal with Generals in the Air Force, you are dealing with a highly Political Animal, that cannot go to the bathroom without permission.

And they have no money, the money is in Congress. A Congressman that happens to be a CAP Colonel, is pure terror to an Air Force General and to a Secretary of the Air Force.

And that is what I am talking about.  Who can we be talking about improving our relationship with the USAF when we have generals who have a real live mission completed being terrorized by a congress.  The budget process is already too politicized as it is and the USAF has real needs it feels it has to accomplish with a limited pool of money.  So if the SECAF gets to the point to where CAP is too much a PITA then he will bite the bullet and start lobbying to cut CAP out of his back yard.

[Chaplaindon]

Friends, $500M is pocket-change to the USAF ... heck it's merely 1/4 of a B-2 "Spirit."

Furthermore, the USAF could easily dump CAP as their "go-to" group for 0200L ELT searches and even missing aircraft -- AND SAVE MONEY.

Although the Congress gave the USAF responsibility for inland SAR for the CONUS (less navigable waterways); the USAF has effectively ACCOMPLISHED tasking that through creation and maintenance of the AFRCC (which, as you know, owns no actual field search assets whatsoever). They are RESPONSIBLE for it, but they don't actually do it.

IAW the National SAR Plan, each individual state is tasked with ultimate field SAR duty responsibility --- NOT the USAF. The "boots on the ground" belong to the state ... at least in some states (perhaps all) the AFRCC calls the state agent for SAR [e.g. the State Police, etc.] and asks whether they --the state agency-- wants to do the mission or to have it given to CAP.

If the USAF/AFRCC "dumps" CAP for SAR --which functionally they can't (they can only cut our USAF FUNDING and federal benefits for missions)-- CAP could and likely would still be engaged by the individual states as their "go-to" group for certain SAR -- like the 0200L ELT search.

So, the USAF/AFRCC could cut us and SAVE themselves money ... and EVEN if it cost them $500M --it won't-- what's $0.5B to the DoD ... nothing.

[Earhart1971]

You say the cadet program will sell...my friend the cadet program is dying.  There are over 79,500,000 young people in the US. Boy Scouts have over 1,000,000 of them; JROTC has over 500,000.   CAP has 20,000.  You really believe that Congress is going to give you  big bucks for a program that reaches so small a group that most calculators can't even compute the minescule percentage. Get real.  The cadet program should be merged into jrotc and CAP tasked with providing aviation assistance "O" rides, etc.  to jrotc. 

You are correct the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is on the ropes, for lack of funding, and inproper National Leadership and Vision.

AFJROTC initally got their Aerospace and Leadership Books from HQCAP and they printed them up as their own, in 1966!

Then the Air Force funded AFJROTC to the tune of 200 million per year.

Yes, CAP does the Cadet Program and SAR for 30 Million a year.

We are a great deal for the Air Force.  You fail to understand the relationship we have with the Air Force.

The Air Force cannot afford to dump us and they need us.

If the Air Force dumps us, next stop 500 million per year for them to do in continent Search and Rescue and ELT missions.

The CAP designed the Air Force JROTC program, and the Air Force funded it properly, therefore they have 200,000 cadets in AFJROTC.

The CAP Middle School Program could do the same with about 1/3 that funding or less.

The CAP Cadet Program is far better, though underfunded, than AFJROTC.

Our leaders need to be able to sell CAP, I would say CAP is due at least 50 million per year, at our current level of Mission activity.

[Dragoon]

Within each of the services, it's made very clear that you don't go to Congress on your own - you only go through your service's legislative liaison office.

Reason?  Very simple.  The Secretary makes up a budget.  He sets the priorities. That means some folks wins and somefolks loses.  If folks within the Service individually hit up Congress for more money, guess where it comes from?  You guessed it - other parts of that Secretary's budget.  And suddenly, his priorities don't happen.

CAP, by going direct to Congress, effectively told the Air Force "we want your money, and we don't care what you have to cut in order to make it happen"

Which is fine if you consider yourself a seperate service (the Navy, Army and Air Force do this to each other all the time).  But if you're trying to claim you're part of the Air Force, you've just been rather, well, insubordinate.

It's very true that if we just did what USAF wanted, we probably wouldn't get some of the fiscal bennies we get now.  But that's part of followship.  We didn't want to do that, so now we're a corporation and (effectively) and non-profit contract to USAF, instead of a full time auxiliary. That's the tradeoff - more bucks, but at the expense of the relationship.

[Chaplaindon]

 

Within each of the services, it's made very clear that you don't go to Congress on your own - you only go through your service's legislative liaison office.

Dragoon is technically accurate, however, CAP has an "ace in the hole" where Congressional access is concerned: the Congressional Squadron.

That "squadron" exists for no other reason than to grant NHQ and CAPFLT001 exclusive DIRECT access to the money printing machine called Congress.

Although, OSTENSIBLY, CAP cannot lobby the Congress for funds outside of USAF-approved channels, the Congressional Squadron --as CAP members AND Members of the Congress CAN.

And the USAF can't do anything but stamp their little feet and be unhappy. The Air Staff will be more than a little circumspect in challenging the actions of such Congress-persons as the USAF budget could suffer.

It's a very clever, convenient, and undoubtedly profitable arrangement.

[flapsUP]

I disagree.  At the AF's insistence, CAP is a separate federal corporation.. It need not and should not go through AF for Congressional funding.  It must have its own legislative funding initiative.  Congress wrote the 2000 legislation to give that right to CAP. (appropriated funds belong to CAP).

If the AF has heartburn because CAP doesn't go through its chain of command  before it goes to Congress it needs a good lesson in goverment and a big bottle of tums.  That, AF is the risk you took when you cut us loose in 2000 now you got to live with it. 

BTW:  All those AF CI's ..how about a CAP CI of the AF.  Under the 2000 law the USAF is obligated by federal law to provide specific goods and services to CAP.  Who's checking up on them? 

[Earhart1971]

I disagree.  At the AF's insistence, CAP is a separate federal corporation.. It need not and should not go through AF for Congressional funding.  It must have its own legislative funding initiative.  Congress wrote the 2000 legislation to give that right to CAP. (appropriated funds belong to CAP).

If the AF has heartburn because CAP doesn't go through its chain of command  before it goes to Congress it needs a good lesson in goverment and a big bottle of tums.  That, AF is the risk you took when you cut us loose in 2000 now you got to live with it. 

BTW:  All those AF CI's ..how about a CAP CI of the AF.  Under the 2000 law the USAF is obligated by federal law to provide specific goods and services to CAP.  Who's checking up on them? 

I like your post and I might add:

Civil Air Patrol has the upper hand with input to Congress, I cannot believe we have not played our cards better, over the past 60 years.

We have every advantage, with membership in Congress, a Congressional Squadron.

I looked at Federal Funding of the Middle School Initative (CAP Cadet Program).

As a start up, I projected a budget for 10 Middle Schools in Each State (Wing).

Funded at $1000 per Student per year, cost of operation.

So lets say we have a Wing that Starts 5 to 10 School programs over a 2 year period.

100 cadets per school, paid instructors and so on.

We easily increase our membership rolls, it would be possible to reach 100,000 Cadets, very quickly, you cannot do that with Seniors that quick, but what CAP does have is experienced Seniors that could support and give orientation rides, that presents another opportunity, more flying time for Seniors.

Then you have a program to talk about.

Congressmen, want to hear about youth programs that work.

This could be done with any amount of money, its a proven program, that has been in some schools for several years now.

With that program funded we can do wonders with the entire program including raising CAP to the level and funding of the National Guard.

[Dragoon]

I disagree.  At the AF's insistence, CAP is a separate federal corporation.. It need not and should not go through AF for Congressional funding.  It must have its own legislative funding initiative.  Congress wrote the 2000 legislation to give that right to CAP. (appropriated funds belong to CAP).

If the AF has heartburn because CAP doesn't go through its chain of command  before it goes to Congress it needs a good lesson in goverment and a big bottle of tums.  That, AF is the risk you took when you cut us loose in 2000 now you got to live with it. 

BTW:  All those AF CI's ..how about a CAP CI of the AF.  Under the 2000 law the USAF is obligated by federal law to provide specific goods and services to CAP.  Who's checking up on them? 

Do you believe for minute that the 2000 law was written by the Air Force?  The way I recall it going down was that CAP under BG Bobick lobbied Congress rather hard to get away from USAF in order to avoid the overhead involved in DoD auditing practices and the like. 

In fact, I saw one potential draft legislation that put a USAF reserve officer in charge of every wing....

[Nick Critelli]

For those interested in logging onto and attending Thursday evening's Webinar (7:00 CSt 4 Jan 2007) here is the url:

https://www.gotomeeting.com/register/472612695

You will be given the teleconference phone number.  Unless you live in Ohio you will incure a long distance phone charge. Otherwise there are no additional charges. 

NICK CRITELLI

[Chief Chiafos]

LTC Critelli,

I have followed this thread for some time with interest.  Change will come wether or not we generate that change, or if it comes imposed by congress; I for one, prefer the former.  I believe that before change can be made successful there is a deeper and more devisive issue: WHO ARE WE?

Our seeming inability to define who we are must be resolved, or we are putting lip-stick on the pig once again.  Change, the NCO issue, uniforms, etc., are rooted in the schizophrenic nature of CAP: are we, or are we not "military"?  The Air Force says they want us to wear their unifrom - and then works like hell to ensure that we don't look like the Air Force.  The Air Force expects us to abide by customs and courtesies, but instructs its people not to salute us back.  Is it any wonder we are confused, frustrated, and demoralised?

And CAP is just as bad; authorizing award of distintictive achievements, like the Blue Beret - then forbiding anyone to wear it (I know, I know, I know - that has recently changed).  But the idea is basic and still applies; and it sends a terrible message.

Our Officers are not "real" but expected to act like they are; until you try to hold one accountable, then its the old "Hey, I'm a Vounteer - worship me because I am here" song and dance.  Try pulling that one off in the all "volunteer" military and see what happens.  Try to correct a misworn uniform and you get the - "I'm not in the military" excuse.

We desparately need trainable people but we have an any-moron-wannabe can join membership policy.  I have watched smart and talented people come to a meeting with intention to join, get a good look at Capt. Snuffy and his refugee-from-a-surplus-store appearance, and we never see them again.

Before CAP will ever get its house in order, it must decide what it is.  If we are military then we need to embrace it whole heartedly.  Set manning documents for each unit and recruit to fill slots, demand discipline, and all other things military; and send those who cannot or will not comply to the Boy Scouts.

If we are not military - then lets dump all the pretence and return the uniforms to the Air Force with a "thank you very much, but we don't pretend anymore."

No man can serve two masters - neither can CAP.  For he will serve only one to neglect the other, or dispise them both.

[ZigZag911]

The Cadet Program will sell, if we can penatrate into the Middle Schools.

That I agree with...but to effectively do that we need to make it across the board and not just at the middle school squadrons.  Lowering the age of entry was tried before and too many people has heart burn over it.  I personally think we should lower the age to 10 1/2 years and in the 5th grade (the same as the Boy Scouts) but that is a different thread.

If we do something like this in a big way, it needs to be run separately....Naval Cadets, Boy & Girl Scouting do much the same thing in terms of age-separated units