Are we loosing the "Cadet" for just a "Program"

[biomed441]

So I'm likely starting a firestorm here, but that is fine with me.

With the increase in regulatory requirements of CAP as a whole (EEO, Extra safety briefings and training,) it seems we spend more time during our squadron meeting trying to make sure we meet regulations than actually focusing on what the cadets thought they signed up for.

I've been DCC at SWR-OK-113 for a little over a year now, and I have to say it has been the most rewarding position I have ever held in any facet of my life, but I wonder sometimes if I'm really giving the cadets what they want, or if CAP in general is giving the cadets what they want.  It seems more and more that we have drifted away from the military roots and structure of the Cadet Program.  When I was a cadet back in 2001; every cadet in my unit had the same goal.  That goal was to join the military.  I grew up in San Diego so the majority of us were planning on joining the Navy or Marines.  Despite this, we all decided that the CAP was the way to get there.  Our motivation was simple.  It was the toughest, coolest, and most rewarding thing we could get our hands on.  Our drill teams made the school JROTC programs look like child's play, and the Young marines and Sea Cadets couldn't even come close to the quality of program we had, or the military training and structure we got.  It was something we were proud of.

Now I sit here on the senior side of things, and I watch as new cadets and parents come in looking for the same program that I went through, but It just simply doesn't exist.  One of the first things I ask new cadets is "What do you expect out of this program?"  90% of the time the response I get is " Military training, and to get yelled at a lot."  I ask the parents the same thing and the standard response is "My kid needs structure and discipline".  While we are not a disciplinary program, the military discipline that once existed in the cadet program just doesn't hold up like it used to.  We've regulated ourselves to the point where a cadet even so much as raising his voice could cause a hazing violation. 

More and more now I find that my duel enrolled CAP/ROTC Cadets are choosing the ROTC Route now.  CAP has gotten "Too easy" for them and no longer presents a challenge.  JROTC programs subject their cadets to actual military drill instructors and MTI's who push them just as hard as they do their normal recruits and trainees in active service.  This wouldn't even be considered a possibility in today's CAP Cadet Program.

Now I digress a bit in that CAP is not about yelling, and not all about the military discipline aspect.  I fully understand that and we do have a lot of other programs that can't be offered anywhere else.  This is what makes our program unique.  My question to the Cadet Programs community is have we gotten too soft and lost the "Cadet" in the "Cadet Program", or am I just trying to embrace a program that is long since gone.  My thoughts on this are if we are going to continue to call the CAP Cadet Program the Air Force's Community Based Cadet program, labelling it in such a way as to align it with the Sea Cadets, and the US Army Cadet Corps, then we need to get back to the roots of the term "Cadet" and really give these kids what they deserve and expect out of a program.  We are not the young eagles with fancy uniforms. 

For those of you who actually took the time to read this, I thank you and I want your honest opinions on the matter.  Maybe I'm concerned over nothing, but if you share the same concerns, or others lets here it. 

[jimmydeanno]

I don't think we've lost any part of the "cadet" portion.  You can still do everything you could back in 2001, when you were a cadet.  The only thing that I think is hindering is the additional requirements being placed on new cadets.  I spent 4 hours the other day getting a cadet just to the point that they could take their first promotion exam.  Between the EServices enrollment, OPSEC, and safety course new cadets are spending more time learning about safety than leadership or how to be a follower.

As a senior, it has become increasingly more difficult to continually request that everyone take another safety course that has replaced the last one that they had to take 4 weeks prior. 

The requirements haven't changed the environment, discipline, drill, demeanor, etc of the cadets, but has made it significantly more difficult to start their cadet progression.

[biomed441]

That's a great point jimmy and I think that does hit an area of frustration for me.  The added requirements are getting out of hand in my opinion.

Thanks for the comment.

[Daniel]

Now I sit here on the senior side of things, and I watch as new cadets and parents come in looking for the same program that I went through, but It just simply doesn't exist.  One of the first things I ask new cadets is "What do you expect out of this program?"  90% of the time the response I get is " Military training, and to get yelled at a lot."  I ask the parents the same thing and the standard response is "My kid needs structure and discipline".  While we are not a disciplinary program, the military discipline that once existed in the cadet program just doesn't hold up like it used to.  We've regulated ourselves to the point where a cadet even so much as raising his voice could cause a hazing violation. 

More and more now I find that my duel enrolled CAP/ROTC Cadets are choosing the ROTC Route now.  CAP has gotten "Too easy" for them and no longer presents a challenge.  JROTC programs subject their cadets to actual military drill instructors and MTI's who push them just as hard as they do their normal recruits and trainees in active service.  This wouldn't even be considered a possibility in today's CAP Cadet Program.

Maybe its just me, but maybe in learning to be a leader we learn that theres a better way as apposed to yelling. The way I look at it is, we have a good balance, I'm disabled, if the goal here was always to join the military I couldn't/wouldn't be here.

But those cadets who say cap is 'too easy' I bet they don't have their Mitchell. I mean try writing an SDA, passing leadership/Aerospace tests and planning an event every two months then talk to me about easy.

For some reason, though, I have still yet to work out, cadets either think phase I is too easy or too hard, and never see the end of it.

Personally I advanced my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation. (and am still doing so) The eservices enrollment and all that junk is part of that right?

[BillB]

Over the years the cadet program has become "soft". There is no question about that. This is due in part to societys changes over the period. Parents used to spank their kids when they did something wrong, now it's called child abuse. CAP also developed a "protect the corporation" attitude, and attempts to prevent anything that might result in lawsuits against the corporation. I can remember when cadets could fly on missions as both a pilot and observer. Those days are long gone.
I agree with CaptainBob, the majority of cadets join CAP for the military aspects, or the aviation aspects. Much of the old program came to a halt with the start of the Cadet Protection Program. CPP reduced the yelling which my not have been a bad thing, but it also reduced senior control over the cadet program. Now cadets "mentor" other cadets. The fact they lack leadership abilities is ignored. Dropping the age that cadets can join CAP has has a large effect on the program. Now when you can have a unit with a large number of pre-teens, you can't have a program that is in large part military. Parents have no concept of the military portion of the program.
Following World War II, the majority of partents of CAP cadets were themselves veterans and understood the military aspect. That no longer applies. The attitudes of society have changed and CAP changed along with it. But the changes made the cadet program soft. Nobody listens to what cadets want, but rather what adults think what is best for cadets. Often these can be totally different ideas.

[coudano]

First of all, the focus and mindset of the entire country was a tad different in 2001 than it is today, agree?

Second of all, you are a deputy commander for cadets, right?
So you basically can set the 'thermostat' at your unit wherever you want.
Even without excessive yelling (hazing) and without punitive PT (forbidden) you can have a highly structured system where your cadets have *actual authority* within the confines of the safe lab environment.  Show me another program that really does that???
You can do 'military stuff', every meeting or every month, if you want to.
You build the program you want.  Build it and they will come.

A lot of cadets think that they want what they think is a 'military program', which is full metal jacket.
Of course, even the real military doesn't live in that environment for much more than 8 weeks (USMC a bit longer).
Out of a 4 year contract, that's only 3.8% of your military career...
Maybe only a slightly lower percentage out of a 20 year career if you add in ALS, NCOA, SNCOA
That said, I try to provide a program for my cadets that matches and orients them to the 96.2% of a military career experience.  Still structured, but not nearly as silly as the accession environment.


In my experience, what cadets (teenagers) *REALLY* want is three things:
1.  They want to fit in with, and be respected within a group that they resepect
2.  They want to be challenged, and succeed
3.  They want to do something that makes a real difference in the real world

You can pull that off, in a military context, without cussing and hitting.


***For the record I also think the ancillary trainings of CAP are getting wayyyyy out of hand.  (although unfortunately not that incongruent with the real military /bleh)

[Patterson]

^ Well written and spot on!!

Cadets of 2001 and today are not that different.  There were rules against the "hazing" then just like today.  Granted there are some fundamental changes in how the program operates (i.e. open book online testing, safety focus etc.), but what has really changed?

When a prospective Cadet and their Parents come and say "we want discipline and military stuff", what do you tell them?? 

If there are specifics that you can tell us (things you did that are not there anymore or have changed so fundamentally that it is unrecognizable), we will be happy to assist you.

Remember that many here ran your Cadet Program of the 1990's and early 2000's.  Being a Cadet and then stepping over to actually implement that program are two very different things.  As a Cadet you (like most) had no idea what Senior Members actually did, and probably thought that the Cadets controlled the program entirely.     

[Spartan]

The cadet program is what you make of it, on both sides.  During my time as a cadet, I was presented with increasing challenges by the senior members who were running the program, up to the point where I was actively working on the planning and organizing side of the cadet program in the squadron.  As a senior member, I am much more aware of the time requirements and planning that go into the things I enjoyed as a cadet.

The safety briefing for an activity can be something as simple as, "Welcome to ___ training.  The temp is 65 degrees and partly cloudy.  In the event of severe weather we will___.  Leaders monitor your personnel's water and food intake and be alert for signs of dehydration.  The hazards in this location are___.  Don't place forks in the electric sockets.  These areas are off limits, and are marked with___.  In the event something happens, notify the activity commander.  If there is an injury that cannot be treated by basic first aid, notify___ and have them call 911." 

After doing the planning for GT training and having participated in the planning for combat missions in the RM, I firmly believe that ORM is an awesome way to make sure you have planned for everything relevant, and have the resources available or on hand to make sure you don't have a catastrophic oops.  If the HAA restriction is lifted, with the proper pre-activity work and commander approval, a squadron could have firearms training, rappelling, an obstacle course and water survival training all together in one weekend.

I have a few questions about the program you are running that might help you gauge where you are and where you want to go.

-Have you communicated your expectations for the cadets to the cadets?  Look into the Pygmalion and Golem effects, it's pretty interesting.
-What specific training do you have for the cadets right now?
-What do the cadets want to do? Do they know everything they can do in the program?
-As DCC, how can you make that happen? 
-Do you have cadet staff who are mature and responsible enough to take on part or all of the tasks you want to do?
-What aspects of the cadet program is currently available to the cadets?
-Do you have a proficient color guard?
-Do you field a cadet competition team?
-How do you develop your cadet staff?
-Are your cadets involved in ES? How? How often?
-Does your squadron, group, wing have an NCO training program?
-How do you choose and train your cadet staff?
-What kind of indoctrination program does your squadron have for new members?

[biomed441]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far.  I'd like to offer individual remarks on all the comments, but I'm on my break so I don't quite have the time to though I'll try to do so later.  A few points that were brought up that I will address are yes, I am the DCC and I do set the tone at my squadron.  In comparison to the rest of the wing, OK113 may be one of the "tougher" units. 

I want to clarify now though, that I am NOT concerned about yelling, or the lack there of.  As stated above by one of you (Again apologies for the lack of proper quotes) we arn't full metal jacket,  but, concidering most of my cadets have never seen, or even heard of the film, I wonder where they would get that mental concept in the first place? The things I don't know about these kids... and probably better off that way.

I will say this though, having taken some 8 or so years away from the cadet program did me some good, and allowed me to see the senior side of the program when I rejoined in 2009.  There are a lot of differences as pointed out earlier that what the seniors do, and what the cadets see are far different.    I want to make sure I am providing the best experience possible for my cadets, and so I listen to them, and often.  Their concerns become my concern. 

Anyways I've got to get back to work, but I'd love to hear more from all of you! Thanks for the feedback.

[Cool Mace]

I think the program has become way too soft, myself.

I had a cadet join my squadron about a year or so ago, and he soon left to join the boy scouts because it's too soft. Anything we do is "hazing". Talk to a cadet one on one about how he can improve? HAZING! I don't see how, but I know way too many Sr.'s that think it is. I know a of a Sr. at encampment last year getting in trouble for when a femal cadet staff member asked him a question. He was told to quit flirtting with her, and it's not his job to help.

Now, in my squadron. All the cadets like the "hard core" (like they really know what it means) kind of place. So after all the Sr. and cadet staff heard about the said cadet above leave because it was too soft, we tighted it up a lot.

It's not like we weren't doing the CAP job. We do pretty much evrything in the book, plus some. So we just do what the cadets ask for, and that's it.

I think people are too worried about hazing, being sued, or afraid to get in trouble with parents to be able to do anything.

[Eclipse]

The comments in this thread about "hazing" indicate how little our members know about what constitutes hazing in a CAP context.

[biomed441]

From my reading of the hazing policy, its as clear as mud and many are unsure of what really does or does not constitute hazing. From simply reading, it comes off as hazing is up to the interpretation of the person who may be subjected to it. This issue has been beaten to death on CAPTALK though and I didn't intend to start another thread on hazing issues, but wrather as a whole are we pehaps unintentionally removing a great deal of the military aspect of things from the CAP. Another question would be what constitutes a military-style program and how do you measure it in that regard?

[Ned]

The comments in this thread about "hazing" indicate how little our members know about what constitutes hazing in a CAP context.

If only NHQ could put out a pamphlet or something to help the membership. . . .

[Eclipse]

The comments in this thread about "hazing" indicate how little our members know about what constitutes hazing in a CAP context.

If only NHQ could put out a pamphlet or something to help the membership. . . .

I would be more than happy to trade OPSEC or ORM for RST as a requirement for Curry, in fact let's make it a Level I thing for all members
and relieve the requirement specific to encampments.  That would be much more relevant.

[Ned]

I would be more than happy to trade OPSEC or ORM for RST as a requirement for Curry, in fact let's make it a Level I thing for all members
and relieve the requirement specific to encampments.  That would be much more relevant.

Bob,

Although I share the "we have too many mandatory trainings for new cadets" sentiment, RST is not a good substitute simply because RST is designed to be "activity specific" and works on engineering specific safety improvements for given activity in a given environment.

It sounds very much like we should be expecting some vigorous feedback on "new cadet overload" through command channels, CP staff channels, and CAC channels.   But so far, I have only seen it on the CS and CT channels.

Just saying . . .

[AngelWings]

I believe our CAP exoeriences would be better if we had more uses with the USAF or always have an evolving mission. Sadly, that isn't a 100% controllable thing for us. We also need to have more events do be in, more publicity via parades and events.

[commando1]

What I really hate is when a cadet chooses to receive extra training outside of CAP (1st Aid, CERT, First Responder etc) he/she is criticized becuase CAP is not a "First Responder" agency....
I have cadets whom I believe are liars and cheats, yet when I report them to the chain of command I'm told "We'll look into it becuase we don't want to offend anyone." So that cadet continues to lie and cheat his way through the ranks and is now expected to hold some sort of leadership position but the senior cadet staff will not allow him to for fear that he will simply use his position to advance his own agenda. But becuase we don't want to "offend" or "harass" anyone we don't single out bad cadets at all. I am seriously considering leaving a great overall program after several years work simply becuase we don't want to hurt some kids feelings. 

[Eclipse]

The issue isn't the outside training, the issue is when they receive it and then come back and want to "extend and enhance" CAP operational parameters, or just continuously gripe about all that CAP "doesn't / can't do".

The issue about ignoring ethics violations because we don't want to offend anyone is local, I promise.  I actively encourage my commanders to address these situations directly and professionally, and have no issue whatsoever with people who want to try to make a hazing or CPPT issue out of it.

However part of the "secret" is know the program well enough to be able to speak with authority when people raise nonsense, and know the boundaries and procedures the system puts in place to protect everyone.  Sadly, this knowledge and experience is lacking in many commanders and CP leaders, who then either hard-charge over the line, or spend their whole tour gunshy about ruffling feathers.