Flightprep patent closing runwayfinder.com, I need a replacement

[Robborsari]

Flightprep was granted a patent for online flight planning and they are using it to force free sites like runwayfinder.com to shut down.  I was in the process of coding something using the runwayfinder.com
API.   I don't want to discuss exactly what I was coding as I might not be able to pull it off and I don't want
to over promise but it was related to displaying maps and search planning.  Now I need to find another
source of online sectional charts.   I have looked at skyvector and they have  some great features but I
cannot easily include the data I want on their chart.  Are there any other free websites that display sectional
charts that people are using?  Thanks.

[Eclipse]

Doesn't Google Earth have a sectional layer?

[a2capt]

Thats what that site did. .. Hopefully this releases a 10 ton gorilla against FlightPrep ...

[JeffDG]

Nevermind...teach me for not reading the whole post.

[Robborsari]

Well.  That will teach me to post before the deadline.  There is an update on the runwayfinder blog that says they have a verbal agreement to stay open.  Never mind  

That said, anyone else use a similar site that I could try?  There are sectional layers for google earth but they are not updated current charts as far as I can tell.  For now I want to stick with online sites that display the charts in a web browser.  Both Skyvector and runwayfinder are great but I would hate to overlook something that could have worked better.

[JeffDG]

Rob,

If you want now, you can actually download the actual charts from the FAA in GeoTIFF format (yeah, they're big...but they're geo-referenced).  Get a free GIS package, and voila, your tablet is now has a full moving-map sectional, with no need for internet connectivity to maintain it...plus they're the official charts, the same files they send to the printers.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications

Sectionals and TACs are geo-referenced.  The LECs are not, however.

[a2capt]

I really should just go look at the patent # and see what it is they are actually claiming.

A while back, before FalconView made it's debut to us, I had this grand idea of an application that used scanned chart data and printed out the scanner form with the grid already pre-filled in, graphically that is.  Then with the GPS tracks from the sortie overlaid on top, the mission scanner/observer form for POD and the next crew, etc- everyone would see *exactly* where that airplane went, and how high it was.

but RunwayFinder showed up and I figured, "they'll do it" ... never got around to it, etc.

Now I have to wonder if this isn't something that should be looked into again, perhaps storing the data locally, or even on the cloud and use a purpose specific browser with the server on a non-standard port. Then if the application isn't distributed blatantly outright 'here look new hard kewl flight planning applications!!!" it won't be "found".

The patenting process here sucks ass with regards to technology, and computers/applications in specific. Someone can claim to have dreamed about it in 1963 and written it on the back of a cocktail napkin and then in 1991 someone else did it, and they wait until 2005 before they say something about it. So it can "get big" and then they can "get lots of money". When time and time again many of these patents have been debunked with prior art from niche angles that just were not obvious during the half-baked light discovery phase that might have occurred.

[Eclipse]

Are they legal for flying?  It took me about 3 minutes to turn them into .PDF's, viewable on an iPad, notebook, Smartphone, or even on iPhone.

If so, why would anyone buy them anymore?

[Spaceman3750]

Smartphone, or even on iPhone.

Do you mean to imply that my iPhone is not, in fact, smart, and that it is some sort of feat that it can view a standard file format . Just kidding, I had to jab back :angel:

[sardak]

Are they legal for flying?  It took me about 3 minutes to turn them into .PDF's, viewable on an iPad, notebook, Smartphone, or even on iPhone.

If so, why would anyone buy them anymore?

If you're talking about the downloadable charts, yes they are legal for flight, whether printed or loaded on to your personal electronic device. This is taken directly from the FAA electronic chart website http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q2f 

3. ..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.

4. ..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.

If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.
******
The next FAQ asks about electronic databases. It states that a database need only be current for IFR and RNAV operations, specifically stating again that there is no currency requirement for VFR operations.

The page's overall caveat is stated: You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.

For those who haven't been to the FAA electronic chart website, the charts are free.
***********
On to your question 2 about why would anyone buy charts. You would be surprised at the number of pilots and and people in general who aren't as electronically connected as you are. I'm a member of the International Map Trade Association (a name I think sounds a bit nefarious) http://www.maptrade.org . There remains a diminished, but successful paper map and chart industry.  Albeit, many of us also rely on computer mapping.

Mike

[a2capt]

There is no statute that says the charts have to be paper. You just have to have the data on hand, and navigate by current data. I have used those charts on a tablet device when I'm making a single trip someplace and don't want to invest in $200 bucks worth of paper.

Of course, there is the "what if the thing crashes", and I usually have at least low altitude airway charts for that, plus the GPS and pseudo AFD.

[Eclipse]

I think we've only entered the area where a tablet in the plane is viable for most people in the last year or so, but knowing pilots as I do (i.e. since they spend $150 an hour on their hobby, they have to squeeze the boogers out of Lincoln's nose on every penny), I would
have thought that being able to print charts for free would be a given.

[a2capt]

To print a chart that is usable, in that detail with the colors you're used to seeing ... especially out west here ... I'd buy the things first.

Ink is expensive, and since it's a page fully covered in ink it's going to be warped and wavy and not usable for a little bit. Plus the map paper does hold up a bit more than the stuff we mortals get. Even if I print it on the plotter. $8 for a chart is nothing, comes ready to use.

I've been using an HP Tablet PC with XP solely for maps, GPS apps, etc, both land and air since early 2004, shortly after the TC1100 was released. In the last year I've changed the OS on it to OS X from XP, and still use it for that stuff. 

But otherwise, yes I share the same view that it's really been within the last year or so that tablet use has become a viable mainstream thing for this purpose.  ...and yes, "all the charts" for San Diego to say, Omaha or Houston, via Kansas City, figuring in weather rerouting and the likes, you're looking about $100 minimum, closer to $160 if you don't pick, choose and gamble that you won't need it.

Combined with Google Maps at the FBO or your favorite iPhone screen like device, and with the service that RunwayFinder did when you had aviation maps on the mind, it was easier to navigate that and the flip to satellite view than to just use Google Maps because this way you could see the airways and whats near by, too.

I've got a 400 gig drive full of charts and chunks of charts, various revisions from experimenting with php and perl, zooming in and out, doing routes and the likes.. probably time to "get interested" in it all again.

[Robborsari]

Another update. Runwayfinder is gone.  Whatever they had agreed to has fallen through. 

[Robborsari]

Runwayfinder is back.  It is a great site for quick flight planning and mapping of coordinates.  They apparently have a license now from flightprep.