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SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« on: December 14, 2006, 04:38:15 AM »

The new 60-1 is out as of 7 Dec 06. Thoughts? Ideas? Complaints?

Looks like, since we're going to an all 182 fleet, they're allowing cadets to do primary training in high performance aircraft.

Requirements for G1000/GA8 PIC quals. Joy.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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A.Member
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Posts: 1,615

« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 03:29:14 PM »

...they're allowing cadets to do primary training in high performance aircraft.
First things, first...I have not looked at the new 60-1.  That said...

As a general statement, my thought about cadets in high-performance aircraft is kind of - "so what?"  Provided the instructor is qualified (and that, I believe, will be the big issue - see below) a student isn't going to know any different.  When a student pilot in the AF enters UPT, they do so with just 50 hours total time and the AF puts them right into a 1,100hp, fully aerobatic,  high-altitude, complex, turbo-prop or a complex,  twin-engine, turbojet.

Given the increase cost per hour, the biggest challenge I see is going to be keeping people current.  For those that don't fly, going to a glass cockpit may not seem like a big deal but it's definitely different than flying the "steam gauges".  Proficency is going to be the key.

The 172 is the most popular GA aircraft ever.  Just about anyone with a ticket has flown it at one time or another.  Every FBO and flying club has one.  As a result, it's easy to find enough people to stay current in them.   Even moving up the 182, in and of itself, is no big deal but when you add in the glass cockpit component it changes the picture a bit.  Glass cockpits are still fairly rare so finding good CFI's with experience to get everyone up to speed in them is going to be more challenging.  Then once a person gets checked out, they need to maintain proficency - this will be a challenge too, especially in the early stages while there is still a limited number of these aircraft.  By the way, I have the same concerns about maintaining proficency in the GA-8 .  The hourly rate is steep and the thing is a pig - no better performance than the 172.  There is little incentive to fly it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 04:20:55 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,107

« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 04:01:41 PM »

I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do jsut that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 04:27:00 PM »

I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do jsut that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
I'm guessing you're not a pilot?  With all due repect, this exercise of having each pilot make an "executive summary" of each part of 60-1 really doesn't seem to be an effective use of anyone's time.  Reviewing this info at regular, mandatory pilot's meetings (preferably during your regularly scheduled squadron meetings) would be much more productive.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 05:23:43 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
ELTHunter
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Posts: 346
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 06:46:50 PM »

I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do jsut that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
I'm guessing you're not a pilot?  With all due repect, this exercise of having each pilot make an "executive summary" of each part of 60-1 really doesn't seem to be an effective use of anyone's time.  Reviewing this info at regular, mandatory pilot's meetings (preferably during your regularly scheduled squadron meetings) would be much more productive.

It would seem to me that by making someone due an "Executive Summary" would cause them to read and understand that material, and by having each member discuss their summary, it would highlight misunderstandings, misconceptions, etc.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

But then again, I'm not a pilot either, so I guess I don't I don't know anything either.  I didn't know learning and understanding processes were different in pilots than other people.  Huh.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 07:19:00 PM »

While I understand what you are getting at....I just finished scanning 60-1 and there is a lot of information that your average non-pilot does not need to know and even a lot of information a pilot does not really need to know.

By all means...your Ops officer types and your Stand Eval guys should know it as well as your top ES people.  They should pull the relevant information out of it and present it to your pilots (and other aircrew types).

But an executive summery...seems a bit much.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Major Carrales
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 08:18:24 PM »

I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do jsut that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
I'm guessing you're not a pilot?  With all due repect, this exercise of having each pilot make an "executive summary" of each part of 60-1 really doesn't seem to be an effective use of anyone's time.  Reviewing this info at regular, mandatory pilot's meetings (preferably during your regularly scheduled squadron meetings) would be much more productive.

Whoa...from whence came this?

No, I am not a pilot.  Worse, I am a Squadron Commander.  In order to know what the hell is happening, I need to know that stuff.  Thus, it works for me.  The unit's OPS officer has made this part of the unit's training.  I don't think it is unreasonable to ask persons who will be flying CAP aircraft to make an intensive "self-study" of CAPR 60-1.  We are not running a kindergarten here where we have to "dumb things down" because its, as my Middle Schoolers say, "too much work, mister!"

I think that "regular, mandatory pilot's meetings" work best when everyone is on the "same page" because they know "what's on the page" to begin with.  Feel free to disagree.

Once everyone knows a basic summary of the document...and made notes on it accordingly...then they can specify.

Funny...it is expected that we all have read CAPM 39-1 and COMPLY with every MANDATORY element therein, but some find it ridiculous that every pilot get to know 60-1.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,107

« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2006, 08:21:13 PM »

I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do jsut that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
I'm guessing you're not a pilot?  With all due repect, this exercise of having each pilot make an "executive summary" of each part of 60-1 really doesn't seem to be an effective use of anyone's time.  Reviewing this info at regular, mandatory pilot's meetings (preferably during your regularly scheduled squadron meetings) would be much more productive.

It would seem to me that by making someone due an "Executive Summary" would cause them to read and understand that material, and by having each member discuss their summary, it would highlight misunderstandings, misconceptions, etc.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

But then again, I'm not a pilot either, so I guess I don't I don't know anything either.  I didn't know learning and understanding processes were different in pilots than other people.  Huh.

I agree.  It's like when a Professor addressed a class.  Many of us have it all wrong.  One is not supposed to go to a University class to hear a leature.  One was to have read the readings and prepare to discuss questions, issues and matters from said readings.   To form a true understanding.

Saddly most students never read the stuff and all there is is a boring lecture.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,107

« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2006, 08:23:50 PM »

While I understand what you are getting at....I just finished scanning 60-1 and there is a lot of information that your average non-pilot does not need to know and even a lot of information a pilot does not really need to know.

By all means...your Ops officer types and your Stand Eval guys should know it as well as your top ES people.  They should pull the relevant information out of it and present it to your pilots (and other aircrew types).

But an executive summery...seems a bit much.

I disagree with some of this.  I feel that a person needs to see the big picture.  To know the "why" before they try the "what."  It removes the "specuation."

Asking a CAP pilot, OPS officer and Squadron Commadner to read and analyze a regulation isn't ROCKET SCIENCE.  You have to be a Cadet to get that! :D

In anycase, that who process is left to my OPS officer who I trust since he was a Nuclear Navy Officer.
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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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SWR-TX-454
A.Member
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Posts: 1,615

« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 12:24:34 AM »

Whoa...from whence came this?

No, I am not a pilot.  Worse, I am a Squadron Commander.
This was not a personal attack on you.  You simply stated something that struck me as extremely unnecessary and I pointed it out, along with offering an alternative solution.  As a squadron commander, particularly a non-pilot, I’d hope that you’d be open to constructive criticism on issues, especially when it comes to flying.

In order to know what the hell is happening, I need to know that stuff.  Thus, it works for me. 
Then perhaps you should summarize it for your own benefit and run it by Stan/Eval for feedback rather than having everyone go through that exercise.

The unit's OPS officer has made this part of the unit's training.
Is that person a pilot?  There is an Operations Officer and a Flight (Air) Ops Officer.  But this mostly falls under the role of the Stan/Eval.  The bigger question is why has he made it a part of the squadron's training?  Has your squadron had a particular problem with the pilot's not being familiar with the regs?  Or could it be that the Ops person isn't familiar with the requirements for pilots (ie. Form 5)?

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask persons who will be flying CAP aircraft to make an intensive "self-study" of CAPR 60-1.
It is every pilot’s responsibility to be familiar with 60-1.  But that doesn’t mean they need to be assigned “homework”.  Do you do these summaries for every other specialties/quals as well?  You mentioned 39-1 in another post – maybe everyone should have to write a summary of that as well?  Seriously, the goal here isn’t to add more paperwork or process for everyone.  You need to trust that these adults are approaching their duties professionally. Pilots must prove their familiarity with 60-1 each year when the complete their Form 5’s.  There are several checks in place.

We are not running a kindergarten here…
That’s exactly what it sounds like you’re running.  Are you grading these summaries as well?  :P  :)  Everyone is an adult - treat them as such.

I think that "regular, mandatory pilot's meetings" work best when everyone is on the "same page" because they know "what's on the page" to begin with.
Here’s a suggestion on how it should work:
*  Pilot briefing is led/facilitated by Stan/Eval and/or Air Ops. 
*  Every pilot is required to attend – they all sign in.  If they do not attend, they cannot fly until they’ve received the briefing.
*  The facilitator presents the 60-1.  Highlighting areas they feel are in need of particular attention.
*  Presentation interlaces open discussion on the existing regs. as well as changes (it's not a stand-up lecture)
The result is that the people that really are supposed to be most familiar with the material present the topic and everyone receives a consistent message.

If, for some reason, you’re having specific issues with a pilot(s) as it relates to 60-1 then address it on a case by case basis through Stan/Eval, Air Ops, or Air Safety.  No one needs to add process for the sake of adding process – there’s plenty of that already.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 12:49:47 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,107

« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 12:46:45 AM »

Whoa...from whence came this?

No, I am not a pilot.  Worse, I am a Squadron Commander.
This was not a personal attack on you.  You simply stated something that struck me as extremely unnecessary and I pointed it out, along with offering an alternative solution.  As a squadron commander, particularly a non-pilot, I’d hope that you’d be open to constructive criticism on issues, especially when it comes to flying.

In order to know what the hell is happening, I need to know that stuff.  Thus, it works for me. 
Then perhaps you should summarize it for your own benefit and run it back by Stan/Eval for feedback rather than having everyone go through that hassle.

The unit's OPS officer has made this part of the unit's training.
Is that person a pilot?  There is an Operations Officer and a Flight (Air) Ops Officer.  But this mostly falls under the role of the Stan/Eval.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask persons who will be flying CAP aircraft to make an intensive "self-study" of CAPR 60-1.
It is every pilot’s responsibility to be familiar with 60-1.  That doesn’t mean they need to be assigned “homework”.  Do you do these summaries for every other specialties/quals as well?  You mentioned 39-1 in another post – maybe everyone should have to write a summary of that as well?  Seriously, the goal here isn’t to add more paperwork or process for everyone.  You need to trust that these adults are approaching their duties professionally. Pilots must prove their familiarity with 60-1 each year when the complete their Form 5’s.  There are checks in place.

We are not running a kindergarten here…
That’s exactly what it sounds like you’re running.  Are you grading these summaries as well?  :P  :)  Everyone is an adult - treat them as such.

I think that "regular, mandatory pilot's meetings" work best when everyone is on the "same page" because they know "what's on the page" to begin with.
Here’s a suggestion on how it should work:
*  Pilot briefing is led/facilitated by Stan/Eval and/or Air Ops. 
*  Every pilot is required to attend – they all sign in.  If they do not attend, they cannot fly until they’ve received the briefing.
*  The facilitator presents the 60-1.  Highlighting areas they feel are in need of particular attention.
*  Presentation interlaces open discussion on the existing regs. as well as changes (it's not a stand-up lecture)
The result is that the people that really are supposed to be most familiar with the material present the topic and everyone receives a consistent message.

If, for some reason, you’re having specific issues with a pilot(s) as it relates to 60-1 then address it on a case by case basis through Stan/Eval, Air Ops, or Air Safety.  No one needs to add process for the sake of adding process – there’s plenty of that already.


Good, you can implement your policy when you are in charge of our unit. 

Could it be that ours is a developing unit with mostly new pilots and no "legacy" aircrew?  Could it be that we are trying to develop a corps of pilots who can fill the roles of Stan/Eval...et al?  Could it be that, by developing every pilot to know CAP policy and procedure that we might just DO THINGS the correct way? Could it be that you don't know a thing about the situation and are judging me because I am not a pilot and command a unit?

We don't have the people to do all those things you so graciously mark as regular...but we are getting there.  Our nearest unit is over 100 miles away.  We, thus, have to make our people from scratch.  Executive summaries are the best HOMEWORK that can be issued based on the situation.  Then, when we travel to the pilots for Form 5s et al, we can know what the devil we are talking about.


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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
A.Member
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Posts: 1,615

« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 12:53:48 AM »

Good, you can implement your policy when you are in charge of our unit. 

Could it be that ours is a developing unit with mostly new pilots and no "legacy" aircrew?  Could it be that we are trying to develop a corps of pilots who can fill the roles of Stan/Eval...et al?  Could it be that, by developing every pilot to know CAP policy and procedure that we might just DO THINGS the correct way? Could it be that you don't know a thing about the situation and are judging me because I am not a pilot and command a unit?

We don't have the people to do all those things you so graciously mark as regular...but we are getting there.  Our nearest unit is over 100 miles away.  We, thus, have to make our people from scratch.  Executive summaries are the best HOMEWORK that can be issued based on the situation.  Then, when we travel to the pilots for Form 5s et al, we can know what the devil we are talking about.
...or it could be that you are a closed-minded, power freak that creates undue process and burden on people when he doesn't understand something.  But again, I'm not familiar with your situation, so I don't know. 

The fact that a squadron is developing or established really shouldn't be a factor in the suggestions I've made.  I assume you have support at the Group and Wing levels, correct?  I was just trying to offer a helpful suggestion/alternative.  If you're not interested, I've got no heartburn over it.  I certainly didn't mean for the post to turn antagonistic.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:07:20 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,107

« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 01:04:22 AM »

Good, you can implement your policy when you are in charge of our unit. 

Could it be that ours is a developing unit with mostly new pilots and no "legacy" aircrew?  Could it be that we are trying to develop a corps of pilots who can fill the roles of Stan/Eval...et al?  Could it be that, by developing every pilot to know CAP policy and procedure that we might just DO THINGS the correct way? Could it be that you don't know a thing about the situation and are judging me because I am not a pilot and command a unit?

We don't have the people to do all those things you so graciously mark as regular...but we are getting there.  Our nearest unit is over 100 miles away.  We, thus, have to make our people from scratch.  Executive summaries are the best HOMEWORK that can be issued based on the situation.  Then, when we travel to the pilots for Form 5s et al, we can know what the devil we are talking about.
...or it could be that you are a closed-minded, power freak that creates undue process and burden on people when he doesn't understand something.  But then again, I'm not familiar with the situation, so I don't know.

You're way out of line.  You anonyms think you are so brave behind your screen names. 

The idea to Summaize the lessons isn't even mine.  How dare you, Sir? 

Maybe you need to learn basic reading comprehension.  the original reply was this...

Quote
I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do [just] that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.

And you are correct, you don't know the situation.

Your stay at the ALPHA HOTEL has taken this thread from a positive look at a new REG, to an exchange of insults. 
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
A.Member
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Posts: 1,615

« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 01:15:42 AM »

...or it could be that you are a closed-minded, power freak that creates undue process and burden on people when he doesn't understand something.  But then again, I'm not familiar with the situation, so I don't know.
This comment did not need to be stated.  For that, I apologize. 

The idea to Summaize the lessons isn't even mine.  How dare you, Sir? 

Maybe you need to learn basic reading comprehension.  the original reply was this...

Quote
I am looking forward to this discussion.  One of the things our OPS officer undertakes is to have the Aviators make an "Executive summary" of all or parts of CAPR 60-1 to foster understanding.

I plan to do [just] that this weekend.  This discussion will greatly facilitate that.
My comprehension is just fine.  That's why I responded with this critical question:
Is that person a pilot?  There is an Operations Officer and a Flight (Air) Ops Officer.  But this mostly falls under the role of the Stan/Eval.  The bigger question is why has he made it a part of the squadron's training?  Has your squadron had a particular problem with the pilot's not being familiar with the regs?  Or could it be that the Ops person isn't familiar with the requirements for pilots (ie. Form 5)?
Wouldn't you want to know this as well? 

I'm not interested in exchanging insults with you, or anyone else for that matter.  My intention was to offer an alternate approach that would more effectively utilize people's time (an approach which you've obviously rejected).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:29:42 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
mawr
Member

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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 01:24:08 AM »

Redacted -  I was challenging A.Member to apologize and A.Member had done just that while I was typing my post.
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Rick Hasha, Lt Col CAP
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 01:26:15 AM »

Retracted as a result of mawr's retraction (was directing him to my previous post). 
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,107

« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 02:28:45 AM »

Retracted as a result of mawr's retraction (was directing him to my previous post). 

I'm glad that is over.  Now, I appologize for my indiscretions.  We are here to learn...at least I am. 

Our OPS officer is a pilot and a former Sub-mariner.  He has done this policy with my approval because, for the last year, we have been rebuilding our unit from obscurity to an OPERATIONAL SQUADRON.

We felt we had to make a solid corps (core) as a foundation for future growth.  We are extremely isolated and have to travel 2 hours or more for even the most simple and basic things like form 5s et al.  Our main goal for 2007 is autonomy in that we now have a CFI in the unit and numbers of pilots.  We celebrated our first full aircrew in year this month.

We are in a unique situation...sort of at the beginning.  Everything we accomplished in 2006 and stand to accomplish in 2007 will set the stage for the future.  We have to set high standards...anything less will merely lead to a future fall.

Your suggestions are noted and...by virtue of this forum, logged.  They will be helpful when we have a SECOND WAVE of pilots.  But, at our current stage, every pilot we have needs to be somewhat an expert.

I trust you will forgive my previous comments...you are no COWARD.  I also trust we will be friends.

Major Carrales
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 02:37:53 AM by Major Carrales » Logged
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 09:27:24 PM »

Oye. The bag of worms I open.

I'll be honest, although I dread doing "homework" like assignments, having your pilots write summaries of the sections of the 60-1 really isn't a bad idea. I personally take the time to familiarize myself with all the new regs, but many don't, and this is one of those things you REALLY want people to know about, because the stuff in there affects whether or not they're covered if they have an incident. Especially when it changes. ALL pilots should know the 60-1 like the bible/koran(sp?)/other religious text. It's important, operational information.

Speaking of, this new regulation finally made it just a bit easier for me to do my 182 checkout, and I finally have my 5 in the 182 as of today.

Score.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
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Psicorp
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Posts: 606

« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 11:32:33 PM »

ALL pilots should know the 60-1 like the bible/koran(sp?)/other religious text. It's important, operational information.

Terrible analogy considering how many thousands of variations of beliefs there are just based on those two books...hopefully we'll be spared the bloodshed over opinions, bruises are allowed though  ;)


Quote
Speaking of, this new regulation finally made it just a bit easier for me to do my 182 checkout, and I finally have my 5 in the 182 as of today.
Score.

Congrats!!
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
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alexalvarez
Forum Regular

Posts: 165

« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2006, 02:13:06 AM »

Dear friends, I am glad to see that some apologizes have been made. Let us treat each other with respect and not insult each other. Nothing positive is accomplished by doing this.  Treat others as you would want to be treated. God bless you all.
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Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014
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