Flight Officer Advancement

[RLM10_2_06]

Hello all. I've just submitted my application for CAP and, if approved now at age 19, will be joining under the Flight Officer program. After looking over the more subtle nuances of this program, I wanted to pose a question for discussion on these forums.

Under the Flight Officer program, it is possible to join as a Senior Member on your 18th birthday with no prior CAP experience, progress within the Flight Officer program in such a way that you promote as soon as time-in-grade is met, and promote to 1st Lieutenant at age 21, with only 3 more months to Captain. This is because the Flight Officer time-in-grade is significantly less than its counterparts (note that "counterparts" is used to refer to the first two promotions from SMWOG in the flight officer program as compared to the first two promotions from SMWOG on the 21+ officer side).

My question is, do you think this is "fair" to implement, considering that anybody joining past 21 who is ONLY progressing through the Professional Development program (again, with no prior CAP experience) must face higher time-in-grade and less of an "edge"? Is this fair considering that those experiencing lower time-in-grade are those who are considered too young and inexperienced to be officers?

I've included the regulation concerning senior member promotions below. I want to emphasize that my question is focused on individuals who have NO prior cadet experience, specialized fields, rank in other cadet organizations, etc. that would provide advanced rank on the senior member side of things, just newbies from 18 onwards.

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf

[a2capt]

I don't quite see in there where the total time in grade (or equivalent grade) is any less, joining at 30 and doing 6+12+18  because if you look at the table for Officer Rank TIG requirements it says 18 months of TIG for SFO or 1lt, or combination thereof. It takes three years to get to Capt., unless there is some sort of waiver granted for prior experience. (Cadet milestones, military experience or mission related skills promotion) 18 to 21 is three years, plus three months.

[spacecommand]

It is good to note that one doesn't join in under/into the flight officer program.  You're joining as a Senior member in CAP.  Senior members 18-21 can be appointed/promoted to FO grades if:

(3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.

It is entirely possible that a senior member 18-21 might not occupy any position of supervision or leadership depending on what they will be doing in CAP. 

Also, you do not promote as soon as time-in-grade is met, you also need to be rated technician in your specialty track (for TFO) and completed the other requirements for Level 2 (for SFO). 

Getting a technician rating takes a minimum of 6months or longer depending on specialty track (if chosen) and how long you take to actually complete those items might be longer.  Same for completing the rest of level 2, which would be OBC and SLS; getting into SLS is a bit more time consuming depending on your group/wing and how often they run SLS and your access to it.

Also remember TIG for flight officers are kept at the squadron level and not recorded at NHQ, the promoting authority for Captain is at the group/wing level, so make sure you have your paperwork tracking TIG.   

[mmouw]

The thing to remember is that the FO grades, depending at what age you join, still counts TIG towards 1Lt or Capt, as long as you do your PD and work towards it. It's just that you can't wear standard officer grade until the age of 21. I always love seeing people mistake FO grades as cadets. Then when the member turns 21 and they put Capt on, the expressions of those who wonder how that could happen and how they now out grade them. 

[a2capt]

Thats exactly it, it's practically the same program with a different set of grade. The clock ticks and if the PD requirements are met it translates, but I don't see it as a quicker route.

[RLM10_2_06]

Wow; just redid my calculations for the TIG, and it turns out they're equal between the two programs. My bad; the stuff all equals out <FAIL> Given that, I suppose I have to adjust my line of questioning quite a bit:

Given that, as has been voiced here, they're basically the same programs with different grade, does it seem okay for the progression in professional development and rank to be happening under a different guise (the flight officer ranks in lieu of officer ranks)? Why do you think the flight officer program is necessary? Given that people can become commissioned officers as young as 19 years old (uncommon, but possible), why not simply cut out the middle man and extend cadet age to the 19th birthday, and then jump to the senior side upon turning 19 (or older, if a cadet so chooses, like the current option to remain a cadet until you're 21)?

[Lmarty]

 Why do you think the flight officer program is necessary? Given that people can become commissioned officers as young as 19 years old (uncommon, but possible), why not simply cut out the middle man and extend cadet age to the 19th birthday, and then jump to the senior side upon turning 19 (or older, if a cadet so chooses, like the current option to remain a cadet until you're 21)?
[/quote]

The Flight Officer ranks are important for Cadets to learn to become SMs.  I have one TFO, (19yo) who was a C/enlisted, out of CAP for a couple of years, now he is AE officer and would be a great 2Lt.  Have another FO (18 yo), became SM six months ago from a Cadet, at least twice a meeting, when he comes, he has to be reminded he is not a Cadet and needs to work on Level I.

[ßτε]

Have another FO (18 yo), became SM six months ago from a Cadet, at least twice a meeting, when he comes, he has to be reminded he is not a Cadet and needs to work on Level I.

I am confused. If he is a FO, why does he need to work on Level I, since Level I or the Mitchell award is required prior promotion to FO. If he has the Mitchell award, he doesn't need to work on Level I.

[tsrup]

Have another FO (18 yo), became SM six months ago from a Cadet, at least twice a meeting, when he comes, he has to be reminded he is not a Cadet and needs to work on Level I.

I am confused. If he is a FO, why does he need to work on Level I, since Level I or the Mitchell award is required prior promotion to FO. If he has the Mitchell award, he doesn't need to work on Level I.

because you don't need your mitchell to be a FO...

however you do need your level I..

[ßτε]

My question is how can he already be a FO, but still need to work on Level I.

[a2capt]

Mitchell *or* Level I, the former enables the FO to happen from a Cadet transition, the latter is required before it can happen for a cadet prior to the Mitchell award or newly joined individual that is aged between 19 and not yet 21. You can start as a cadet until the day you turn 19.

One  can be commissioned at 18 even, but CAP is not the active duty military. We have what we have, as you have not figured out there is no difference in time-in-grade, but there is a benefit to reach higher in the cadet ranks as you have also read as that would make it a "shorter" route by in effect giving credit for time-in-grade of cadet participation.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Direct answer to your dilemma.  If you choose at the age of 21 to process the paperwork for the grade of 1LT, then your TIG starts over for Capt.

Shows me to look up the reg......See the next two posts below this one.

Sorry

[tsrup]

Direct answer to your dilemma.  If you choose at the age of 21 to process the paperwork for the grade of 1LT, then your TIG starts over for Capt.

Wrong answer

35-5 states that the for Capt. you need "18 months TIG as a 1st Lt or SFO (or combination of both)"

TIG does not start over when you turn 21

[Spaceman3750]

Direct answer to your dilemma.  If you choose at the age of 21 to process the paperwork for the grade of 1LT, then your TIG starts over for Capt.

Going from SFO->1Lt? Or am I misunderstanding you. Because the TIG requirements for Capt. is 18 months TIG as 1Lt or SFO "or combination therof" (CAPR35-5 Sec. B Fig. 2)

OP: How do you figure that the FO track requires less time to Capt. than the regular track? It takes 6 months to 2Lt, another 12 months to 1Lt, and another 18 months to Capt, which works out to 36 months to Capt., which is exactly the amount of time someone joining on their 18th birthday will spend as a flight officer.

EDIT: Darn, tsrup beat me to it while I researched.

[exFlight Officer]

The thing to remember is that the FO grades, depending at what age you join, still counts TIG towards 1Lt or Capt, as long as you do your PD and work towards it. It's just that you can't wear standard officer grade until the age of 21. I always love seeing people mistake FO grades as cadets. Then when the member turns 21 and they put Capt on, the expressions of those who wonder how that could happen and how they now out grade them. 

I've had the same experience when it comes to Senior Members, and even cadets, thinking that I am a cadet. It is awkward respectively correcting the Senior Members. A cadet at an Encampment that I attended came to me and asked, "Sir, what is that line in the middle of your LT Bars?" I was/still am a TFO at the time.

RLM10_2_06 , good luck with the Flight Officer program!

[tsrup]

The thing to remember is that the FO grades, depending at what age you join, still counts TIG towards 1Lt or Capt, as long as you do your PD and work towards it. It's just that you can't wear standard officer grade until the age of 21. I always love seeing people mistake FO grades as cadets. Then when the member turns 21 and they put Capt on, the expressions of those who wonder how that could happen and how they now out grade them. 

I've had the same experience when it comes to Senior Members, and even cadets, thinking that I am a cadet.

Doesn't go away when your an officer either,
My first encampment as a senior I was a TAC O as a 1st Lt.  The regular staff got black shirts for PT and each of the flights got their own color.  The tacs got the same color shirt as the flight they were with.  First fire drill I'm making a final check of the rooms so Im the last one out of that side of the billeting and I get yelled at by some cadet staff member while Im on my way out. 
The Commandant (he was my DCC when I was a cadet way back when, Im at a different squadron now) called me the "spy" for the duration..